Certifications for a skipper

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by muttnik

If you want to argue that certification requirements in Oz are inadequate and need tightening I think you need to provide more concrete figures to suggest that (a) there's a problem and (b) that is the way to solve it.

The UK has no licensing requirements for operators of non-commercial watercraft. The number of leisure boating fatalities are tiny. Carbon monoxide poisoning makes up a lot of those. I don't have a breakdown of the remainder but I'll wager that those attributable to ignorance of a skipper that would have been avoided by licensing is negligible. Fatalities can still happen on the best qualified skipper's boat and a licence does not prevent idiots from being idiots.

I'm a huge advocate of training and would advise anyone taking to the water to seek appropriate training. If the figures supported a case for compulsory licensing I wouldn't have an issue with it (I have a yachtmaster certificate by choice), but when we're talking about preventing fatalities amounting to less than 1 in 10 million population annually there are many better areas to expend government resources than compulsory licensing.

The UK is not Australia. We are relatively densely populated, well covered by the RNLI and in VHF range of the coastguard just about everywhere. UK arguments don't necessarily apply to the Australian coastline but the need to justify a call for increased legislation with actual figures is, I think, transferable.

Australia has very high boat ownership per capita and even though we have a small population it is mostly concentrated in a relative few spots along the coast. Outside of these areas, you almost need to be self sufficient if going boating in any form as help can be quite a distance away.


I hold both commercial and recreational boating qualifications and the difference between the two is that commercial qualifications are standardized across the nation (administered by a federal authority) whereas recreational licensing is done on a state by state basis which results in a mishmash of licensing requirements. Personally, I think that having a basic recreational license is a great idea. Takes less than a day to do and at least it gets people to read the COLREGS and demonstrate the most basic of boat handling skills. My main gripe is that someone with a basic license can get behind the wheel of a some high powered gin palace without any additional endorsements and wreak all the carnage they want.

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Popeye46

In Australian waters, onboard a commercial vessel, all injuries sustained by anyone on board must be reported to the maritime authorities. The Masters report should include the name and address of the people affected and any witnesses. That includes a passenger sustaining an injury which only requires a bandaid.
If the master calls for assistance for whatever reason, that should also be reported and a marine inquiry may result. During a marine inquiry the crew and witnesses may be required to submit statements. All these incidents are recorded and are available, in fact a study of these incidents is included in the Maritime college courses for Masters.
As is the key issue of this discussion, the above rules do not apply to a private vessel unless someone dies, in that case it would be a coronial inquiry not a marine inquiry. If a private 55ft Riviera came in to a floating pontoon and the “captains” son jumped onto to the pontoon to secure a stern line and as the son is securing the line with his finger between the rope and the horn cleat, the “captain” becomes anxious about the duckboard hitting the pontoon astern and gives the 300hp engine a nudge forward causing the line to tighten on the sons finger crushing the bone and partially amputating said finger. This incident would not be made public.

I'm not really sure what the point is. It seems the status quo is quite reasonable (IMO).

One is a business venture with paying public and the other is a family affair which needs not to be made public.

In the example cited, I reckon the son would think Dad was an idiot and Dad would think the son was an idiot. Maybe Mum would read the riot act to both of them .

[Jim Cate]

demonstrate the most basic of boat handling skills.

From watching quite a few "driving lessons" put on by commercial instructors whilst anchored in the Pittwater area, the boat handling skill training is solely conducted in circa 6 meter tinnies. Primary emphasis seems to be recovery of MOBs. All well and good, but hardly relevant to a 40+ foot sailing vessel or a high powered motor cruiser or sport fisher type boat... the kind of boats most of us have or lust for. Possession of the license that results from such training has little to do with a successful life on the sea.

Frankly, such training and regulation seems a waste of time to me. However, instilling some knowledge of and respect for COLREGS and related rules is a great idea... especially the latter point. There seem to be lots of folks, even here on enlightened CF, who have basic knowledge of the rules but who don't respect them or follow them personally and even brag about this mind set. That's a sad state IMO, and sadder still is the case that even with some basic licensing laws, it is unlikely to change.

One can but admire the Brits who have very little superstructure to their boating and yet who seem to turn out a higher class of boaters in terms of general competence and seamanship (possibly a figment of my imagination, but fueled by lots of comments here on CF).

Rant over, so return to your scheduled activity!

Jim

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

From watching quite a few "driving lessons" put on by commercial instructors whilst anchored in the Pittwater area, the boat handling skill training is solely conducted in circa 6 meter tinnies. Primary emphasis seems to be recovery of MOBs. All well and good, but hardly relevant to a 40+ foot sailing vessel or a high powered motor cruiser or sport fisher type boat... the kind of boats most of us have or lust for. Possession of the license that results from such training has little to do with a successful life on the sea.

You are probably watching dingy sailing courses. Cruising courses are different matter.

Almost all of my teaching is done on 40 foot (or bigger) sailboats. The basic level courses deal with how to sail, anchor and dock - and conduct a MOB under sail and under power. The next level courses focus on living aboard boats, boat systems, navigation and more serious sail trim including gennakers. Beyond that we expect student to demonstrate the ability to skipper and crew on extended voyages including over night passages. Lastly we do an ocean passage, including some celestial navigation. Colregs are taught throughout all courses That is a very cursory description; our syllabus is much more extensive.

[Mr B]

In Victoria, Its a two day boat course to get a boating licence,
Its quite a comprehensive course,

If its got a motor in it, Its compulsory to have a boat licence, No ifs or Buts,

Mine was done on a 25 foot cabin Cruiser in Port Phillip Bay.
MOB was a part of it,
A day for theory, the next day on the water for practical experience,
Extra half day for a skidoo licence,
They are in addition to a boat licence,
Or you can just get a skidoo licence only, But you cant drive a boat with it,

You can fail these tests if you arent good enough,

I queried it when I got my Cat, As I was under the impression I needed a captains licence if the boat was over a certain size, EG; 35 foot,

From AMSA,
I can drive a 500,000 ton super tanker on my boat licence, IF, I own it and dont carry passengers or freight for reward or payment, ,

I dont make the rules, But thats how it stands at present,

[Jim Cate]

You are probably watching dingy sailing courses. Cruising courses are different matter.

No, these were commercial courses aimed at getting the local (NSW) boating license. They did not involve sailing in any way. As I said, the craft used were all motorized aluminium skiffs, locally known as "tinnies".

And of course, education aimed at improving sailing and cruising skills is taught in appropriate vessels, even here in Oz!

My post was directed at the courses aimed at satisfying license requirements... the subject under discussion as I understood it.

Jim

[chrisr]

Originally Posted by Mr B

In Victoria, Its a two day boat course to get a boating licence,
Its quite a comprehensive course,

If its got a motor in it, Its compulsory to have a boat licence, No ifs or Buts,

Mine was done on a 25 foot cabin Cruiser in Port Phillip Bay.
MOB was a part of it,
A day for theory, the next day on the water for practical experience,
Extra half day for a skidoo licence,
They are in addition to a boat licence,
Or you can just get a skidoo licence only, But you cant drive a boat with it,

You can fail these tests if you arent good enough,

I queried it when I got my Cat, As I was under the impression I needed a captains licence if the boat was over a certain size, EG; 35 foot,

From AMSA,
I can drive a 500,000 ton super tanker on my boat licence, IF, I own it and dont carry passengers or freight for reward or payment, ,

I dont make the rules, But thats how it stands at present,

as someone who DOES hold a licence to 'drive' a 500,000 ton super tanker, it is rather frustrating to know that in most of australia i need a state small boat licence for my 12m cat and / or 3.5m RIB...

cheers,

[GILow]

Well, I studied for the South Australian boat license in the time it took me to pick up the booklet from the counter and then stand in line to sit my test.

Needless to say, the boating activities I see around me each day attest to the depth of learning required to pass.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Popeye46

If a private 55ft Riviera came in to a floating pontoon and the “captains” son jumped onto to the pontoon to secure a stern line and as the son is securing the line with his finger between the rope and the horn cleat, the “captain” becomes anxious about the duckboard hitting the pontoon astern and gives the 300hp engine a nudge forward causing the line to tighten on the sons finger crushing the bone and partially amputating said finger. This incident would not be made public.

I'm a licensed vehicle driver (car, motorcycle and heavy goods vehicle). If someone slams their finger in my car door it doesn't become public either. Your point is?

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by chrisr

as someone who DOES hold a licence to 'drive' a 500,000 ton super tanker, it is rather frustrating to know that in most of australia i need a state small boat licence for my 12m cat and / or 3.5m RIB...

cheers,

Rediculous, But thats the way it is, Hahahahaha

Cheers, Brian,

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by StuM

I'm a licensed vehicle driver (car, motorcycle and heavy goods vehicle). If someone slams their finger in my car door it doesn't become public either. Your point is?

That depends on how loud they are screaming from the pain,

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by chrisr

as someone who DOES hold a licence to 'drive' a 500,000 ton super tanker, it is rather frustrating to know that in most of australia i need a state small boat licence for my 12m cat and / or 3.5m RIB...

cheers,

Yeah, but I bet you don't have the training to rescue a life jacket from that supertanker. Lifejacket rescue is a critical component of a lot of recreational license tests!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GILow

Well, I studied for the South Australian boat license in the time it took me to pick up the booklet from the counter and then stand in line to sit my test.

Needless to say, the boating activities I see around me each day attest to the depth of learning required to pass.

Reminds me of the Recreational Skippers Ticket test in WA.

Class size maybe 30, one hour of learning and then the test (multi choice answers). The instructor says "There is one question that you have might difficulty in understanding. Don't worry, the answer is B". He went to explain the question and the reasoning behind the answer (B). He also said "I know one or two of you could get this wrong so remember, the answer is B"

Sure enough, two guys still got it wrong (ticketed something else than B) and wondered why the rest of us laughed loudly.

Some people can't be helped .

[Wotname]

But it gets worse. The next evening was the practical test using the instructor's boat. We all drive the boat around in turns and pick up the lifejacket and so on. It takes longer than planned and by the time we go back to the ramp, it is dark. The instructor flicks the nav lights on but there is no white forward facing light indicating it is a power boat. I ask him why and he explains it isn't a requirement for a boat of this size. Now I know his answer is BS but I keep my own counsel and so we go back to the ramp.

As we are retrieving the boat at the ramp, a fisheries inspector comes along and asks about the absent white forward facing light. The instructor gives the fisheries inspector the same erroneous answer. The inspector is not amused . The inspector suggests the instructor should know the rules before taking money from punters.

But hey, another 30 boatman are licenced and good to go out on the water!

[Jim Cate]

^^^^^

Wottie, you never fail to drill down to the essence of an issue. What a story...

Jim