Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-10-2020, 21:23   #16
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 11,645
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
"If you drive a powered vessel for recreational purposes on NSW waters, at a speed of 10 knots (18.5 Kilometres per hour) or more, you must have a boat driving licence."
I can read

But what is a powered vessel?

Sail boat (without an engine) is wind powered. Row boat (without engine) is human powered. Both can exceed 10 kts. Power boat usually refers to a boat solely powered by an engine (steam, petrol, diesel, electric etc).

A sail boat using the engine for propulsion is considered to be power driven vessel as far as the COLREGS goes. Does it also mean that as far as NSW boat licence goes?

Is a sail boat with an engined fitted but not providing propulsion a "powered" vessel?

Does driving infer using the engine for propulsion? Is driving the same as sailing?

Details are important.

EDIT: I guess it is somewhat academic for me though, I haven't owned a boat capable of 10 kts for four decades now.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2020, 22:54   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPB
Posts: 10,659
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wotname View Post
I can read

But what is a powered vessel?

Sail boat (without an engine) is wind powered. Row boat (without engine) is human powered. Both can exceed 10 kts. Power boat usually refers to a boat solely powered by an engine (steam, petrol, diesel, electric etc).

A sail boat using the engine for propulsion is considered to be power driven vessel as far as the COLREGS goes. Does it also mean that as far as NSW boat licence goes?

Is a sail boat with an engined fitted but not providing propulsion a "powered" vessel?

Does driving infer using the engine for propulsion? Is driving the same as sailing?

Details are important.

EDIT: I guess it is somewhat academic for me though, I haven't owned a boat capable of 10 kts for four decades now.
Both the Marine Safety Act and Marine Safety Regulations use the term "power-driven" vessel (as per COLREGs), not "powered vessel" in this context , but neither define it.

Common sense would dictate that it would equate to COLREGs "power-driven"
There is little doubt about it there
(b) The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery.
(c) The term “sailing vessel” means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.

In fact, "power-driven" is also used in other places:
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/licence/index.html
You must have a general boat driving licence if you operate a power-driven vessel for recreation on NSW waters, at a speed of 10 knots (18.5km/h) or more.

https://ablis.business.gov.au/servic...-licence/23761
You will require this licence if you intend to operate a power-driven recreational vessel in NSW waters, at a speed of 10 Knots (18.5km/h) or more.



As for the difference between "driving' and "sailing". The former implies you have full control over speed and direction. Not so the latter.
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2020, 23:08   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 74
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye46 View Post
In NSW Australia it is not the size of a private boat that requires the skipper “licensed” it is the speed. So one can build his/ her 60ft boat out of chipboard take his wife and 4 kids around the world as long as his/her boat is not capable of doing 10 knots. He is also referred to as “Captain” which suggests he knows what he is doing, yet he maybe be a moron endangering his and other peoples lives. To make matters worse if something went wrong the “captain” is not culpable, he can plead ignorance in his defense. This situation has repeated itself many times in the past.
When it comes to commercial vessels particularly ones that carry passengers different story, the skipper has a lot of hoops to jump through they are termed as “Master” of the vessel. The authorities ensure they are competent and they issue a ticket to say so. It called a Masters ticket, they give that out so they have someone to blame when the sh*t hits the fan and because he jumped through the hoops and proved that he was “competent” he cannot plead ignorance and can be jailed.
I’m not sure of the situation in the US, what is required to be a “captain” of a private boat.

Wow.

Well in the US you buy a boat and you can do with it as you please, now insurance might have some requirements if you choose to buy insurance, and of course you are responsible for your actions like any other grown up doing grown up things.

I really wouldn’t want the .gov that in my personal business, they can’t even fill in potholes correctly.
SalingSue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2020, 23:31   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPB
Posts: 10,659
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Additionally, the NSW Boat Licence Study Guide is quite clear:

Sailing vessel -
A vessel propelled only by sails; when a vessel is under sails but being propelled by engines it is classed as a power driven vessel
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-10-2020, 23:47   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43 and OPB
Posts: 10,659
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by SalingSue View Post
Well in the US you buy a boat and you can do with it as you please
Another erroneous claim from you.


See

Boating Laws and boating license requirements by state


Select a state from the drop down list to see the mandatory requirements to operate a boat in each state.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	USBoatRequirements.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	77.8 KB
ID:	225387  
StuM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2020, 00:52   #21
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 11,645
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by StuM View Post
............

In fact, "power-driven" is also used in other places:
https://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/maritime/licence/index.html
You must have a general boat driving licence if you operate a power-driven vessel for recreation on NSW waters, at a speed of 10 knots (18.5km/h) or more.

https://ablis.business.gov.au/servic...-licence/23761
You will require this licence if you intend to operate a power-driven recreational vessel in NSW waters, at a speed of 10 Knots (18.5km/h) or more.


.....
Thanks for finding the NSW links which use the term 'power-driven'. That is much clearer!

__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2020, 13:10   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 62
Re: Certifications for a skipper

The early Polynesians did explore areas of the Pacific however they were confined to areas within the polynesian triangle. By night they would navigate by the moon and stars, by day, the sun. This novice sailors would be taught by the experienced sailors on how to navigate and sail. How many left their island home never to be seen again we will never know.
The European explorers figured that the world was not flat and there was no edge, however they did not pass on that knowledge. If they did it went against the teachings of the Catholic church and they would be “processed” by the inquisition, kind of like the Gestapo or locked up in a gated community like Gantamo Bay. If they went on a log voyage out of sight of land and returned safe everyone would say it was a miracle. The English however were not restricted by the inquisition so they passed on their knowledge which in effect were navigation courses to the Captains.
Their navigation skills quickly surpassed the Europeans. That is why the zero meridian passes through Greenwich England and a circle is 360 degrees. All this stuff was taught to make boating safer.
Just can’t help myself
We boldly go where no man has gone before
Popeye46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2020, 15:40   #23
Certifiable Refitter/Senior Wannbe
 
Wotname's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 11,645
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye46 View Post
The early Polynesians did explore areas of the Pacific however they were confined to areas within the polynesian triangle. By night they would navigate by the moon and stars, by day, the sun. This novice sailors would be taught by the experienced sailors on how to navigate and sail. How many left their island home never to be seen again we will never know.
The European explorers figured that the world was not flat and there was no edge, however they did not pass on that knowledge. If they did it went against the teachings of the Catholic church and they would be “processed” by the inquisition, kind of like the Gestapo or locked up in a gated community like Gantamo Bay. If they went on a log voyage out of sight of land and returned safe everyone would say it was a miracle. The English however were not restricted by the inquisition so they passed on their knowledge which in effect were navigation courses to the Captains.
Their navigation skills quickly surpassed the Europeans. That is why the zero meridian passes through Greenwich England and a circle is 360 degrees. All this stuff was taught to make boating safer.
Just can’t help myself
We boldly go where no man has gone before
I guess you know nothing about the history of Catholic Europe because if you did, you would not have posted such inaccuracies.

Here is as good a place as any to start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Tordesillas


TL;DR - Catholic Europe (i.e. the Pope) knew the earth was round and divided it up among between the super powers at the time (Spain and Portugal) a long time before the English got into the act.
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
Wotname is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-10-2020, 15:59   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: SF Bay Area
Boat: Other people's boats
Posts: 336
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye46 View Post
The European explorers figured that the world was not flat and there was no edge, however they did not pass on that knowledge.
Err, what? That the world was round was well-known since classical times; the later religious debates were around heliocentricity.

The idea of a flat earth belief is a modern invention, possibly in part a side effect of later debates around science vs. religion. (A reminder that in political debates, many arguments on both sides may be fallacious.)
requiem is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:21   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 62
Re: Certifications for a skipper

I did not want to start a debate on whether or not the earth was a biscuit or an orange, suffice to say that when Galileo said that the earth went around the sun, he was declared a heretic and locked up by the Catholic inquisition until he decanted his theory. My point was that because the English navigators shared information as a whole they became better navigators. The power of education.
Live well and prosper
Popeye46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:24   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 62
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Sorry that’s a typo not “decanted” recanted his theory
Popeye46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:35   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 62
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Would you believe that there is a “flat earth society” registered in the UK. They believe the photos of a roundsome earth taken by the American astronauts were faked.
Popeye46 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:48   #28
Registered User
 
chrisr's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Tasman 40' catamaran
Posts: 768
Re: Certifications for a skipper

one of the many annoying things about boating in Oz is that rules change from state to state

for instance, we do not need any licence to operate our cat or our tender in nsw, but when we go to queensland we do. however you cannot get a queensland licence unless you have a queensland address...

easiest answer is to just ignore it and hope fr the best !

cheers,
__________________
"home is where the anchor drops"...back onboard at Iluka, waiting for border to open... maintaining social distancing !
chrisr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:32   #29
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Westerly Oceanlord
Posts: 438
Re: Certifications for a skipper

Quote:
Originally Posted by Popeye46 View Post
This situation has repeated itself many times in the past.
If you want to argue that certification requirements in Oz are inadequate and need tightening I think you need to provide more concrete figures to suggest that (a) there's a problem and (b) that is the way to solve it.

The UK has no licensing requirements for operators of non-commercial watercraft. The number of leisure boating fatalities are tiny. Carbon monoxide poisoning makes up a lot of those. I don't have a breakdown of the remainder but I'll wager that those attributable to ignorance of a skipper that would have been avoided by licensing is negligible. Fatalities can still happen on the best qualified skipper's boat and a licence does not prevent idiots from being idiots.

I'm a huge advocate of training and would advise anyone taking to the water to seek appropriate training. If the figures supported a case for compulsory licensing I wouldn't have an issue with it (I have a yachtmaster certificate by choice), but when we're talking about preventing fatalities amounting to less than 1 in 10 million population annually there are many better areas to expend government resources than compulsory licensing.

The UK is not Australia. We are relatively densely populated, well covered by the RNLI and in VHF range of the coastguard just about everywhere. UK arguments don't necessarily apply to the Australian coastline but the need to justify a call for increased legislation with actual figures is, I think, transferable.
muttnik is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
certification, skipper

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What are the basic barebone ins, lic and or certifications? gdfsbtch Our Community 7 04-01-2015 17:28
Certifications and Requirements ? flatspaddler Training, Licensing & Certification 18 15-07-2010 18:54
ABYC Certifications unbusted67 Boat Ownership & Making a Living 4 29-03-2010 05:57
US Sailing vs ASA Certifications tintin Training, Licensing & Certification 5 03-06-2009 18:32
Licenses and certifications ... ? j9gillik Training, Licensing & Certification 13 13-05-2008 10:26

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:45.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.