Boat registration in the EU - as EU citizen

[Rapanui]

Originally Posted by nepal

That last sentence is not correct. Certainly not for EU boats and their crew.

Inside the territorial waters of any nation, that nations laws apply as they do on in their land territory, thats sovereignty. The collective EU nations can agree regulations but they only become law in any nation once that nation enacts the regulation in their national laws. The EU cannot make supra-national laws. As someone pointed out, boatowners and everyone else inside their territory do not have immunity from their laws. Outside all territorial limits, the situation is different.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rapanui

Inside the territorial waters of any nation, that nations laws apply as they do on in their land territory, thats sovereignty. The collective EU nations can agree regulations but they only become law in any nation once that nation enacts the regulation in their national laws. The EU cannot make supra-national laws. As someone pointed out, boatowners and everyone else inside their territory do not have immunity from their laws. Outside all territorial limits, the situation is different.

EU regulations as opposed to Eu directives are supra-national laws. They are immediately effective from date of implementation in the EU Irrespective of national timetables

[Alita49DS]

Originally Posted by Elcid

I am a EU citizen - and I am looking to buy a boat in Spain.
I only have a RYA Day Skipper certification (and not the ICC). Due to some complications the earliest I could obtain the ICC would be next year in March.

Is there a country (e.g. Malta) where I could register my boat, that will accept only my RYA (and not require ICC)?

What are some countries I could look for? I researched Spain - but the it looks very messy

My understanding is that if you have the Day Skipper Cert you can obtain an ICC through the RYA. I would suggest that you write to the RYA. I cannot say if this applies if you are not a member. However, that is not too onerous. My current sub is £45pa.

Otherwise, what others have written is correct. As far as my own boat is concerned nobody has ever asked me for my ICC. For any reason.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Alita49DS

My understanding is that if you have the Day Skipper Cert you can obtain an ICC through the RYA. I would suggest that you write to the RYA. I cannot say if this applies if you are not a member. However, that is not too onerous. My current sub is £45pa.



Otherwise, what others have written is correct. As far as my own boat is concerned nobody has ever asked me for my ICC. For any reason.

You do not need an icc if you have a day skipper. The day skipper is far in advance of the icc

By the way icc is only issuable to citizens and residents of the issuing country hence you have to be a U.K. residence to get a icc from the U.K. . Other countries may or may not recognise RYA qualifications

[nepal]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Can I state again as I have here for years , the flag of your vessel DOES NOT imbue it with diplomatic immunity.

Within the territorial waters of a nation including many EU nations you ARE obliged TO FOLLOW whatever laws apply to you and your boat , IRRESPECTVE of what your flag state mandates ( or doesn’t ) comity only applies where it is allowed
Hence you require competency certification in Croatia , irrespective of your flag state requirement , or you must wear a life jacket under certain circumstances ( and have the correct number aboard , irrespective of your flag state , once inside Irish national waters ( as examples )

When will these misconceptions end.

Note after brexit a EU established person should avoid uk registration ( note SSR was only open to uk residents and part 1 requires the appointment of a uk based “ agent “)

This misconception cannot end because there is no misconception.

Do you have any official sources? I would love to show mine but cannot, because there is of course not such thing as an official list of thing who are not forbidden.

In Brittany, Normandy, Nord Pas du Calais there are many harbours where 25% till 50% of the boats have the Belgian flag. I've been there. I'm reading French sailing forums of and magazines already 25 years,etc.

French (and other mostly southerly EU citizens) use the Belgian flag (and others mostly northerly) to avoid the yearly French "tax de franscisation" and not to have the extensive list of equipment on board. The French government cannot forbid this because persons and goods are free to move between the EU. France and other countries asked Belgium to change their rules. Now every one must prove that the owner lives in Belgium if they want Belgian flag. It's a big issue among French sailors which flag they will choose once their "vlaggenbrief" expires.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by nepal

This misconception cannot end because there is no misconception.

Do you have any official sources? I would love to show mine but cannot, because there is of course not such thing as an official list of thing who are not forbidden.

In Brittany, Normandy, Nord Pas du Calais there are many harbours where 25% till 50% of the boats have the Belgian flag. I've been there. I'm reading French sailing forums of and magazines already 25 years,etc.

French (and other mostly southerly EU citizens) use the Belgian flag (and others mostly northerly) to avoid the yearly French "tax de franscisation" and not to have the extensive list of equipment on board. The French government cannot forbid this because persons and goods are free to move between the EU. France and other countries asked Belgium to change their rules. Now every one must prove that the owner lives in Belgium if they want Belgian flag. It's a big issue among French sailors which flag they will choose once their "vlaggenbrief" expires.

If French domestic law requires XYZ to be on board a pleasure vessel in French waters then that is the law that applies , irrespective of flag state . This was explained to me in nice ( over flares ) in great detail by the port police. However Comity is usually applied to a greater or lesser degreee

For example Irish lifejacket law applies to all pleasure vessels within its territorial waters , irrespective of the flag state requirements. Flout it and you can be fined or prosecuted . In this case no comity is allowed for.

Remember comity is purely a diplomatic nicety , nations regularly apply laws to all entities within their jurisdictions irrespective of another nations stipulations

The French law on vessel equipment does apply to all boats with French waters , but the French widely don’t actually do a lot about it , they apply a degree of comity ( they don’t have to if they don’t want to )

Tax is another matter entirely

As I said , the misconception is that the flag state rules apply in another nations waters , they do not ,and it’s up the nation the boat is in , to decide how much comity they apply , it’s they who choose not you

Exactly the same systems apply to cars registered in other countries visiting another nation. Typically comity applies for a limited time , but purely at the nation states pleasure.

Flag registration does NOT provide diplomatic immunity from local laws.

[goboatingnow]

The French government cannot forbid this because persons and goods are free to move between the EU.

The EU does not prevent the application of local laws directed at “ means of transport “

If I drive in France , in my Irish car , I can be fined for not having the appropriate French safety /breakdown equipment , even though none is required in Ireland.

Free movement of people and goods refers to a limited set of legal agreements , it is not absolute , national laws can apply to foodstuffs, certain other categories of products , and to means of transport etc. It’s most directly seen in services which are not freely traded across the single market

[Piscis]

Do i really have to show proof of VAT/tax paid if i am a German citizen, buy and operate a boat in Thailand, but register it in Germany?

AFAIK, as long as the boat does not enter EU VAT country waters, no EU VAT has to be paid... Or am i wrong here?

I guess not?!

John

[nepal]

[QUOTE=goboatingnow;3281024]The EU does not prevent the application of local laws directed at “ means of transport “

If I drive in France , in my Irish car , I can be fined for not having the appropriate French safety /breakdown equipment , even though none is required in Ireland.

/QUOTE]

But why you don’t have to change the steering wheel from side when you drive your Irish car in France?

[goboatingnow]

[QUOTE=nepal;3281159]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The EU does not prevent the application of local laws directed at “ means of transport “

If I drive in France , in my Irish car , I can be fined for not having the appropriate French safety /breakdown equipment , even though none is required in Ireland.

/QUOTE]

But why you don’t have to change the steering wheel from side when you drive your Irish car in France?

Because French law doesn’t specify a side for the steering wheel to be on. Ireland for example does not require a RHD car , merely that you drive on the left side of the road , the wheel can essentially be anywhere.

[nepal]

Even the side of your exhaust pipe is regulated. I know from experience.
Please Goboatingnow, do a reality check. All French and EU laws are on the internet. It is impossible to prove that something is not forbidden but not the opposite.

I grant you the last reply.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by nepal

Even the side of your exhaust pipe is regulated. I know from experience.
Please Goboatingnow, do a reality check. All French and EU laws are on the internet. It is impossible to prove that something is not forbidden but not the opposite.

I grant you the last reply.

Car construction type approval is largely now governed by EU rules , ie EU type approval , rather then national laws

I have demonstrated specific national laws that apply to boats irrespective of flag state ( ie Ireland’s life jacket laws , Croatian competency , etc )

You have simply not provided any alternative

As I said the principle of Comity ( I presume you understand this ) is normally applied by many states , However the degree and length of time the application of comity applies is entirely within the control of the nation state. It may suspend or never apply it to certain aspects of its laws.

As I have said repeatedly the flag state of a vessel does not protect it from the application of national laws, when the vessel is within national boundaries, however a degree of comity is typically applied in many cases subject to specific caveats and exclusions.

A classic example of where comity is not applied is the laws surrounding the carrying of firearms aboard , as a American cruiser found to his cost of the German coast several years ago

[boatman61]

I think that was a failure to declare.. AKA Arms Smuggling.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Elcid

I am a citizen of Romania working in DK, but not yet a resident. Hence the issue with obtaining the ICC. If I were a resident here RYA could issue an ICC for me.?

How would the RYA know the difference. You have a DK address and are happy to pay, then I suspect the RYA will be wiling to issue a ICC, or do you need a UK address? Certainly worth a try. I did my ICC sat in a pub talking to the examiner over a glass of wine, all very civilized.

Pete

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Pete7

How would the RYA know the difference. You have a DK address and are happy to pay, then I suspect the RYA will be wiling to issue a ICC, or do you need a UK address? Certainly worth a try. I did my ICC sat in a pub talking to the examiner over a glass of wine, all very civilized.



Pete

The rya can only issue iccs to U.K. addresses

They got into hot water a few years ago and were stopped issuing iccs to no residents. ( icc is a UN concept)