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View Poll Results: ASA vs RYA
RYA: There is no substitute 5 71.43%
There's a solution to your problem and it's in my post. Read it. 0 0%
Don't be a tool. Just call the school. 1 14.29%
Who are you, and how did you get this phone number? 1 14.29%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 17-03-2021, 11:34   #46
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Re: ASA vs RYA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
...

There is an awkward stage of the development of pilots, half way between being a beginner and being seasoned, where most fatal accidents occur. I think it's more like this.

There are different kinds of self-confidence. ...

The bad kind of self-confidence can be exacerbated in newly-minted Yachtmasters by an exaggerated idea of what the qualification means. Like a law degree -- a Yachtmaster qualification is the BEGINNING, not the end of the road of learning. You might have started at zero, but you're not a hero yet.
Just picked this part of Dockhead's to quote but there were other poster's that made me think about what I am posting.

One of my careers has yearly training that has to be done year after year after year. Some of the classes are new each year, some are the same, year after year after year.

I still learn something ever time I take one of the classes I have been taking for too many decades. Last year, I learned something that I wish I knew decades ago. Almost basic it was. I was practicing and another person was having problems. I kept my mouth shut and ears open and the instructor said to the other person to try to do it this way. So I did. Unreal difference it made. I have shared that itty bitty technique with other people who then had the same reaction I did. The instructor had just learned this little twekk on YouTube. Like within the last hour or so.

So the part of this discussion of taking RYA classes after ASA, I could see value in that because it would be a different syllabus, but more importantly, different instructors. Course, one could take the ASA classes again under a different instructor.

We were lucky that our ASA classes were taught by two different instructors. This could be a problem but it was not. One of the instructors, our first one, used to be a college professor, but is now the senior captain on at a company running a couple small cruise ships. Both instructors were great. Most Excellent. However, my wife was having trouble learning from the first instructor. Not sure why since I was understanding what he was teaching. For whatever reason, she was not getting the lesson from this instructor. He could tell, and he was changing his teaching approach, but for some reason it was not clicking with her. The second instructor's approach worked. Go Figure.

The reason I learn something new in these classes I have been taking for decades is because it is a different instructor. They have different experiences, teach differently, and have different approaches which leads to something new to learn, even with the same subject.

Confidence. In some professions, one gets out of training and does things by the book. The training can be to prevent worst case situations, situations that many will never see. The problem is that over time, one can forget the training. One could say this is being lazy, or complacency, forgetfulness, overconfidence, or some mixture of all. The reality is that people get away with it, whatever the reason, because they never run into the worst case scenario. The problem is, if they did run into worst case, then there a... is handed to them.

This often happens to mid career people because they are not doing as they were trained, and when things go pear shape, it does not end well. The person just out of training can often do better because the training is still ingrained. The person at the end of the career, as a group, seems to have ingrained the lessons, maybe from experience and/or learning from other's mistakes.

But, and this is getting back to what Dockhead is talking about to some extent, some people just Can't Do, especially, when the Poo His the Fan. I have seen this over and over and over. I know people who are very smart. People who can do the book work better than most, but when they have to apply the book work, in a stressful situation, it gets ugly. They make mistakes. They do the wrong thing.

It is something I have pondered for years. I don't know why it happens but I have seen it for decades. Making The Right decision, in a stressful situation, is simply difficult, if not impossible, for many people, irregardless of a tremendous amount of training.

Of course people are human. They make mistakes. But in some professions, you have to be right 100% of the time or you are in deep trouble. Not sure many people can be right 100% of the time in these situations...

The watchstander that Dockhead mentioned was just not able to do the job. Some people are like that. One can have all sorts of training, education, and mentoring but still can't be trusted to do the job. Even the simplest of things. Seen that over and over and over too.

Later,
Dan
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Old 17-03-2021, 17:59   #47
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Re: ASA vs RYA

Have you ever noticed that some people have a habit of creating stressful situations and seem to enjoy managing the ensuing crisis, which they do quite well

It makes me wonder if this is a subconscious desire to show off or something else?
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Old 17-03-2021, 18:37   #48
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Re: ASA vs RYA

I would assume that the so-called “Zero to Hero” courses typically involve the same instructor (or a small number) and are conducted on the same, perfectly maintained yacht.

A big part of what they would miss would be experiencing a range of ways of doing things plus sailing on a variety of yachts and having things break / break down and having to fix them.

I would suggest that you learn a lot more when things go wrong and you have to fix them than when everything works perfectly the first time.

Maybe the RYA need to introduce a minimum time to gain your sea miles for the more advanced qualifications?
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Old 18-03-2021, 09:26   #49
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Re: ASA vs RYA

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Have you ever noticed that some people have a habit of creating stressful situations and seem to enjoy managing the ensuing crisis, which they do quite well

It makes me wonder if this is a subconscious desire to show off or something else?
I have wondered, but there are quite a few people in the US at least, who really are anxious people. I know too many people who have anxiety disorder. It can be debilitating like depression.

Then there are Drama Queens. Which is different than someone with anxiety disorder.

I have known people in both groups, thankfully, very few Drama Queens, but too many people with anxiety issues.

Later,
Dan
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Old 18-03-2021, 09:37   #50
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Re: ASA vs RYA

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Originally Posted by ChrisJHC View Post
...

I would suggest that you learn a lot more when things go wrong and you have to fix them than when everything works perfectly the first time.

Maybe the RYA need to introduce a minimum time to gain your sea miles for the more advanced qualifications?
Yep. In all of the classes I have taken, with various degrees of certification/graduation, in every case, the real learning takes place after leaving the class. When the student has to apply what has learned, or should have learned, is when the real education starts.

Classes setup a foundation, teach a vocabulary/language on a subject, show a process, etc. It is what comes after the class where the real learning takes place. Flip side is that I have taken many a class, that were completely useless in application, but you had to have the class, to get the piece of paper, so you could do the applying.

ASA recommends 80 hours of sailing time between the ASA 101/103 classes before taking ASA 104. My guess is that some people need less than 80 hours, others need more than 80, and for some, all of the time in the world will not help them.

Later,
Dan
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Old 18-03-2021, 09:42   #51
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pirate Re: ASA vs RYA

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
I have wondered, but there are quite a few people in the US at least, who really are anxious people. I know too many people who have anxiety disorder. It can be debilitating like depression.

Then there are Drama Queens. Which is different than someone with anxiety disorder.

I have known people in both groups, thankfully, very few Drama Queens, but too many people with anxiety issues.

Later,
Dan
One see's this every day on CF... every time someone posts they are looking for a boat <$20K to sail to Europe or the Caribe the Anx group emerge with posts like "You'll need to re-rig, re-engine, new sails blah blah blah.."
These are folk who will never become delivery skippers.. their customers would not be able to afford them.
For example I was the 6th Skipper contacted to take a Catalac 9m from the UK to Turkey.. the repairs and demands from each of the YM skippers who had gone before added up to more than the value of the boat..
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Old 19-03-2021, 09:27   #52
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Re: ASA vs RYA

I note that bensolomon mentioned NauticEd in one of the first-page comments. I see on their web site that they offer something called an International Sailing License and Credential (SLC) which is obtained by a series of courses and a practicum.

Does anyone have experience with, or thoughts on the SLC vs training courses and licensure by ASA or RYA?

Does my question count as as hijacking the thread? If so, let me know and I'll post a separate question thread. I just thought that the folks who responded to this thread have some knowledge and opinions about various courses and certifications.
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Old 19-03-2021, 09:43   #53
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Re: ASA vs RYA

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Originally Posted by rls8r View Post
I note that bensolomon mentioned NauticEd in one of the first-page comments. I see on their web site that they offer something called an International Sailing License and Credential (SLC) which is obtained by a series of courses and a practicum.

Does anyone have experience with, or thoughts on the SLC vs training courses and licensure by ASA or RYA?

Does my question count as as hijacking the thread? If so, let me know and I'll post a separate question thread. I just thought that the folks who responded to this thread have some knowledge and opinions about various courses and certifications.
Rls8r,

I'm in the Chesapeake, too! As for the SLC, it is more accepted in the EU and other countries. Email Grant Headifen or call him. He is great! He will walk you through the differences and figure out what best suits you. The contact information is:
Info@nauticed.org or 512-696-1070.

I have no connection to NauticED other than being a very satisfied student.

I've taken ASA courses, as well. To me, the RYA Dayskipper with ICC was far superior to the ASA.

Ben
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Old 19-03-2021, 10:48   #54
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Re: ASA vs RYA

As a basic guide the RYA Day Skipper: can safely skipper a boat in local waters by day.
A Coastal Skipper can safely skipper a boat by day or night within sight of land.
A Yachtmaster can safely skipper a boat up to 150nm from land by day or night
A Yachtmaster (Ocean) can safely skipper a boat Worldwide.

Of course these qualifications are generally voluntary unless one is being paid to skipper the boat when they need to be commercially endorsed.
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Old 19-03-2021, 11:06   #55
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Re: ASA vs RYA

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
ASA recommends 80 hours of sailing time between the ASA 101/103 classes before taking ASA 104. My guess is that some people need less than 80 hours, others need more than 80, and for some, all of the time in the world will not help them.
From a local school here, I've heard from the instructors that the school once offered such zero-to-hero combination courses, but stopped doing that after they noticed it wasn't doing the students (or the boats?) many favors. Instead they're broken into multiple weekends, and between each course they've added requirements before taking the next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rls8r View Post
I note that bensolomon mentioned NauticEd in one of the first-page comments. I see on their web site that they offer something called an International Sailing License and Credential (SLC) which is obtained by a series of courses and a practicum.

Does anyone have experience with, or thoughts on the SLC vs training courses and licensure by ASA or RYA?
Within the US, I'll go out on a limb and say that none of these have much "official" standing. A possible exception is ASA, as they suggest 101 meets NASBLA requirements.

I like that NauticEd is trying to create a more formally recognized certification and offers a way for people in the US to get RYA / ICC certs, but what I don't like is the sense that their marketing is perhaps... overstating a few things. For example, their FAQ notes: "The SLC is only issued to individuals who already hold a National Government Boating License. .... Holding a government license means the holder already meets the technical legal requirement that many hosting countries require." On a pdf that floats about the internet listing valid certs for Croatia, US Sailing, RYA, and ASA appear, but SLC is not showing up yet. Perhaps that's just my perception?
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Old 19-03-2021, 11:19   #56
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pirate Re: ASA vs RYA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_Giles View Post
As a basic guide the RYA Day Skipper: can safely skipper a boat in local waters by day.
A Coastal Skipper can safely skipper a boat by day or night within sight of land.
A Yachtmaster can safely skipper a boat up to 150nm from land by day or night
A Yachtmaster (Ocean) can safely skipper a boat Worldwide.

Of course these qualifications are generally voluntary unless one is being paid to skipper the boat when they need to be commercially endorsed.
Only if carrying passengers.
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Old 19-03-2021, 11:21   #57
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Re: ASA vs RYA

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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Have you ever noticed that some people have a habit of creating stressful situations and seem to enjoy managing the ensuing crisis, which they do quite well
Sounds a bit like a savior complex; in it's worst forms it can lead to things like firefighters committing arson. I do consider this rather different from complacency or entitlement, which are much more similar to each other and I think harder to disentangle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dannc View Post
I have wondered, but there are quite a few people in the US at least, who really are anxious people. I know too many people who have anxiety disorder. It can be debilitating like depression.
I've a similar observation. I suspect it's coming from increased (or at least less-realistic expectations) coupled with a declining standard of living (lower wages, life expectancy, etc). This may seem laughable to those who have had to scrabble their way to the top, but consider it like a boat spec'ed for inland sailing; the cleats might not be that strongly backed, the anchor may be undersized, etc. Take it outside that environment and sail it as hard as a boat designed for rougher conditions and things are likely to break. Similarly, even with a strong boat, if you don't pay attention to a growing wind you might easily find it overpowered.

Assuming things will be fine for others simply because you were able to work through them, or assuming that the conditions for others are the same as they for you, is a sort of complacency. It's the same complacency that one might spot on watch, or in the workplace, or just in everyday life. Just as one must watch the wind, one must also watch the people. A good instructor, noting early signs of trouble, will adjust their approach rather than simply pressing on.
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Old 19-03-2021, 11:48   #58
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Re: ASA vs RYA

I was lucky in that I was able to complete my DS practical in Portugal between lockdowns, after doing the theory exactly a year ago in a classroom literally days before the first lockdown. I want to get some sailing done before I do any more courses, Ive met quite a few guys now who dont have any qualifications (still appear to know what they are doing though)
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