Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-11-2022, 07:56   #46
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Port Credit, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 7,103
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalepo View Post
What about fundraising charters for which the owner / captain receives no compensation -- would this scenario require a USCG license?

This scenario might come up if, say, a boat owner donated a sunset sail for six passengers for a nonprofit's silent auction benefit.

Or a boat owner might encourage (or require?) guests on a daysail to make a contribution to a local environmental nonprofit in lieu of compensation for him/herself.

In either of these cases, the boat owner is receiving no direct or compensation beyond good karma. Based on the following language from USCG page someone cited above, it would seem a license would not be required, right?

"You need a Coast Guard license if you carry
even one passenger for hire on your vessel.
“Passenger for hire” means a passenger for
whom consideration is contributed as a condition
of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing
to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any
other person having interest in the vessel."
It's not the USCG I'd worry about. It's about how your insurer and the courts would view it if something happened.
__________________
If you're not laughing, you're not doin' it right.
boatpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-2022, 08:09   #47
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,211
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalepo View Post
What about fundraising charters for which the owner / captain receives no compensation -- would this scenario require a USCG license?

This scenario might come up if, say, a boat owner donated a sunset sail for six passengers for a nonprofit's silent auction benefit.

Or a boat owner might encourage (or require?) guests on a daysail to make a contribution to a local environmental nonprofit in lieu of compensation for him/herself.

In either of these cases, the boat owner is receiving no direct or compensation beyond good karma. Based on the following language from USCG page someone cited above, it would seem a license would not be required, right?

"You need a Coast Guard license if you carry
even one passenger for hire on your vessel.
“Passenger for hire” means a passenger for
whom consideration is contributed as a condition
of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing
to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any
other person having interest in the vessel."
That's a bit grey. As for guests chipping in for expenses I believe that's been held to not being for hire, as long as there's no attempt to make a profit.
The charity cruise could be different. The passengers likely did compensate the charity so money did change hands. Even though the boat operator is not getting paid directly, it is likely a tax deductible contribution so he could get compensated indirectly. Not sure if that qualifies or not. I've done several of these cruises for our church. I have a Master ticket so no problem there, but here in Michigan charter boats must be inspected by the state DNR which we were not. So I was still potentially in violation there. I did not write them off on my taxes. There wouldn't really be a problem unless there was an accident and someone got hurt, and in that case the lawyers would use anything they could find to nail you if they sued. I doubt any law enforcement would get involved.
capt jgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-2022, 09:19   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

The fundraising charter is presumably not a documented and examined "6 pack eligible" UPV. Since it is mandatory for a bareboat charter to have the captain and crew paid by the charterer it would be best if the transaction between one charterer and the owner ("administered" by the charity like a "broker"?) were one written contract and there be a separate contract between the one winning bidder and the Captain. I was hired for one and the charity was completely ignorant so I got the winning bidder's name and I had a contract with them, I wrote a separate contract (my day job) between the owner and charterer and sent it to the charity, with a link to the Coast Guard bareboat charter guidelines and said "I'm not your lawyer. Have your lawyers review this." Good observation on state and local chartering laws. This was a one off thing and I telephoned the local guy and said essentially "I didn't think a one time charity donation required a charter permit from the harbor, did he disagree?" For a lot of bareboat charters (they are recreational boats by definition) Coast Guard licenses are a qualifications indicator, especially in a state that doesn't have universal "boaters education cards". But treating the charity as a charter with a Captain paid by the charterer (winning bidder) if supported by the written contracts, would present a pretty good case that there are no passengers for hire and that the "consideration" was for the charter contract, not passage. Fun fact, the one I worked so hard to make legal turned out to be on a really skunky day, and my recommendation to the charterer who hired me was "I don't get seasick easily, but you might be better off having a nice picnic staying in the harbor." And I explained to the owner (I was there for the pre-charter survey) that I was leaning that way even though it might have been "safe" (he and I had just gone to the next harbor up to get fuel).









Quote:
Originally Posted by dalepo View Post
What about fundraising charters for which the



owner / captain receives no compensation -- would this scenario require a USCG license?

This scenario might come up if, say, a boat owner donated a sunset sail for six passengers for a nonprofit's silent auction benefit.

Or a boat owner might encourage (or require?) guests on a daysail to make a contribution to a local environmental nonprofit in lieu of compensation for him/herself.

In either of these cases, the boat owner is receiving no direct or compensation beyond good karma. Based on the following language from USCG page someone cited above, it would seem a license would not be required, right?

"You need a Coast Guard license if you carry
even one passenger for hire on your vessel.
“Passenger for hire” means a passenger for
whom consideration is contributed as a condition
of carriage, whether directly or indirectly flowing
to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any
other person having interest in the vessel."
Ratty1978 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-2022, 16:15   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 108
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty1978 View Post
The fundraising charter is presumably not a documented and examined "6 pack eligible" UPV. .
There is no such thing as "6 pack eligible uninspected passenger vessel." Any vessel, whether US documented or state registered that carried passengers who have paid to be onboard requires the operator to be licensed - OUPV (6 pack) or masters. UPV are not inspected or "examined" by definition they are uninspected and just need to meet the minimum equipment requirements for the class/size of the vessel.
slipaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-2022, 17:30   #50
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,211
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

46 CFR Chapter I subchapter C covers the requirements for OUPV vessels. It's basically the same as the requirements for private pleasure craft with a few minor differences, as I recall. In most locations nobody inspects to make sure you followed the rules, but here in Michigan the state DNR does. And they add their own set of requirements that are way more severe. It's illegal to operate a charter here without the DNR inspection.
capt jgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-11-2022, 17:57   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Hampton Roads, VA
Posts: 108
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt jgw View Post
46 CFR Chapter I subchapter C covers the requirements for OUPV vessels. It's basically the same as the requirements for private pleasure craft with a few minor differences, as I recall. In most locations nobody inspects to make sure you followed the rules, but here in Michigan the state DNR does. And they add their own set of requirements that are way more severe. It's illegal to operate a charter here without the DNR inspection.
Makes a good point that one doesn't only need to comply with the Federal law and USCG regulations, but state and local ones as well!
slipaway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2022, 06:57   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 68
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

I never considered skipping the safety examination, but you got me to look it up. Looks like you can skip the Uninspected Passenger Vessel Examination and if the vessel were under 5 net tons, you'd only need to be sure it was state registered, the other vessel safety requirements are met and you could operate the vessel under the 6 pack rules. I guess I can go ahead and bring 6 passengers, at least one paying, out on on my quarter tonner (racing classification not GRT) sailboat!



https://wow.uscgaux.info/content.php...2&category=upv



Quote:
Originally Posted by slipaway View Post
There is no such thing as "6 pack eligible uninspected passenger vessel." Any vessel, whether US documented or state registered that carried passengers who have paid to be onboard requires the operator to be licensed - OUPV (6 pack) or masters. UPV are not inspected or "examined" by definition they are uninspected and just need to meet the minimum equipment requirements for the class/size of the vessel.
Ratty1978 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2022, 14:23   #53
Moderator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,335
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Does anyone know if there’s a required period of eligible sea time to take the OUPV exam or can one actually achieve the certificate with no practical experience at all?
skipperpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2022, 14:45   #54
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,211
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
Does anyone know if there’s a required period of eligible sea time to take the OUPV exam or can one actually achieve the certificate with no practical experience at all?
OUPV requires a minimum of 360 "days at sea" with a minimum of 4 hours underway per day. Master is also 360 days for inland or 720 days for near coastal which covers up to 100 nm offshore. You can count back to age 16 counting days. Sea time must be signed off by the owner or operator of the vessel, if you own it you can sign off yourself, just need to show proof of ownership. Unlike other countries there is no check ride or practical skill demonstration. The written exams are quite difficult though, very few people pass thier first attempt without taking a prep course.
capt jgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2022, 15:04   #55
Moderator

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,335
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by capt jgw View Post
360 "days at sea" with a minimum of 4 hours per day. Master is also 360 days for inland or 720 days for near coastal which is up to 100 nm offshore. You can count back to age 16 accumulating time. Sea time must be signed off by the owner or operator of the vessel, if you own it you can sign off yourself, just need to show proof of ownership.


Thanks for that cpt jgw, that’s more like what I’m familiar with except that our seatime must be no older than 5 years unless AMSA specifically approves of it and initial seatime is more like 900 days near coastal at an absolute minimum of 7.5 hrs per 24 actually doing deckwork and watches ( not serving drinks or catering etc)
skipperpete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-11-2022, 16:02   #56
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,211
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipperpete View Post
Thanks for that cpt jgw, that’s more like what I’m familiar with except that our seatime must be no older than 5 years unless AMSA specifically approves of it and initial seatime is more like 900 days near coastal at an absolute minimum of 7.5 hrs per 24 actually doing deckwork and watches ( not serving drinks or catering etc)
Our licenses don't get much respect in other countries, they think they're too easy. Bartending and wait staff time doesn't count. Our car driving licenses are easier to get too, and it shows.
capt jgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:05   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: EU
Boat: Jeanneau 45
Posts: 104
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

When I lived in the US, I would hire a vessel from a sailing club and offer strangers on gum tree if they wanted to join me for a few hours in exchange of sharing the hire cost. Is that allowed, or not?
svtickles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 10:23   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Morgan 382
Posts: 2,919
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by svtickles View Post
When I lived in the US, I would hire a vessel from a sailing club and offer strangers on gum tree if they wanted to join me for a few hours in exchange of sharing the hire cost. Is that allowed, or not?
This is allowed as long as everyone contributes the same amount, including you.

For example, if the charter of the boat costs $100, and you bring along 3 friends, each of you pays $25. That is fine. But if your friends pay $33.33, and you contribute nothing, then you have indirectly received $25, and that is not ok.
__________________
-Warren
wholybee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-01-2023, 11:07   #59
Registered User

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Muskegon, Mi
Boat: Columbia 36
Posts: 1,211
Re: 6 pack license - paying passengers and their guests

Quote:
Originally Posted by wholybee View Post
This is allowed as long as everyone contributes the same amount, including you.

For example, if the charter of the boat costs $100, and you bring along 3 friends, each of you pays $25. That is fine. But if your friends pay $33.33, and you contribute nothing, then you have indirectly received $25, and that is not ok.
Reading this as if the one who hired the boat got reimbursed for more than his share of the cost, I believe you are correct. If you made or attempted to make a profit, it's a charter and you must be licensed and the boat properly equipped. Sharing the cost equally is fine
capt jgw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
license

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do I need a license to have paying passengers? welljim Training, Licensing & Certification 35 12-07-2012 12:03

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:43.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.