Selene vs Nordhavn

[RaySea Lady]

Originally Posted by Bill Lee

Hi RaySea Lady,
Thanks for your post and suggestions. Out of curiosity, When relocating your yacht for any significant distance do you ship her or motor along to your next far off destination? I have no interest in passagemaking itself. But I may have to do so and didn't want to rely on dockwise (or other transport). I also wanted to be safe for those 'just in case' weather scenarios.... Any thoughts or suggestions are most welcome. Cheers,
Bill

Hi Bill,
Never shipped her, it involves taking the top level off and requires two semi's with escorts, she is 65 overall 14 wide and 19 air draft with 36 draft. So, wherever I go she goes on her own bottom. Have had discussions with the Admiral about shipping her to the Mediteranean but that is a dream at this point. But, who knows...

The worst I have been out in it were choppy 7 to 8 foot waves on Lake Erie (which I must say was rougher than anything we saw in the ocean on the way up) and although it was not as comfortable as I would have liked, it was still comfortable enough for the girls to be playing cards on the upper deck table.

The trip from Charleston to Windsor on Lake St. Clair between Erie and Huron took 17 days but a lot of that was in the canals where the speed is 10mph max and most is no wake.

She has twin cummins 450 hp and at 1250 rpm, she does 10mph (8.7 knots) and consumes 6 gph. at 2000 rpm she does 16mph (13.9 knots) and consumes 20.2 gph. At WOT she does 25.3mph (22 knots) in salt water and consumes a ridiculous 50.8 gph. Speed is great but you only use it when you need to.

With 480 gallons on board she will go (at 90% fuel capacity) 721 miles at 1250rpm, 341 at 2000rpm and 216 at 2800rpm. These distances to not make it feasible for passagemaking.

Mine is not for sale, at least not for the next year ot two, but I should add that there are quite a few to choose from on Yachtworld at very reasonable prices too. I think you can get a decent coastal cruiser with better accomodations and for half or less than that 700K you mentioned before.



Let me know if you need any more info.

[RaySea Lady]

Just an afterthought to my post.

If you are looking at getting it to Europe or Mediteranean, shipping it may cost you 50K, however if it is once in a lifetime thing, it may still be cheaper to ship it if you pay half or less for the boat...

The passagemaking voyage across is not something I would want to make even if I had a boat that could do it. A few weeks with nothing but water to look at is not my thing. I like to be in a marina or anchored at a scenic site at night.

[djmarchand]

Bill:

I came to this party late, so forgive me for answering some old questions, but maybe I can give a different take on your original 5 points/questions.

1. Unquestionably the Nordhavn is built for bluewater and is priced accordingly. Will you get it back when you sell? Maybe, maybe not. You can rarely recoup a greater initial purchase price after it depreciates for another x years.

2. The Nordhavn is the only one (including the Krogen) that is fully blue water capable right out of the box. The others need upgrades, like window covers. But will you ever need this capability. You can do a lot of cruising while staying within a days sail to a harbor. Only if you ever decide to go to Bermuda or something similar do you really need blue water capability.

3. As a sailor I have followed your power management philosophy. But the only appliance that might need dual voltage capability is the refrigeration unit. And if you are generating 120 AC by running your genset you can certainly supply enough DC with a large charger. So your preference for the Nordhavn's systems seems pointless to me.

4. Get home engine- see #2. Fishing trawlers (as well as supertankers) go out hundreds of miles from their home port with one engine. If you are a competent shade tree mechanic and have tools and spares you can repair a single diesel to get you home.

5. Rolling- You need to ask someone with paravanes to let you go along while they deploy them. It isn't easy and not something I would think about doing unless I had a few days of offshore cruising to do. Hydraulic stabilizers are expensive and prone to break but are a better solution for routine cruising.

I don't know which of the three boats has the best unstabilized stability. I would suspect that the Krogen does.

You can buy a 10 year old Krogen 48 for about $600K. And they come in single or twins.

David

[Bill Lee]

Hi Ray,
Thanks for your posts. My Admiral concurs with your view. If we weren't interested in getting from Mexico to the PNW and back (multiple times) I doubt we'd need the safety features of a trawler... There's a lot to think about. In a way, our current boat is perfect. We hold 200 gallons of water, 524 gallons of diesel (for a 42' that's great), we can cruise all day long at 26 knots, or slow down to 18 knots and burn less than 15 gph or go slower longer. We've seen rough water and she handles it brilliantly. We don't enjoy rough water and I wouldn't want to bring her from the PNW to Mexico on her own bottom - and certainly NOT back up (as that's supposed to be worse). Once in Mexico - we could cruise her almost anywhere. I guess I have to wrap my mind around how often will we travel up and down the West Coast, the cost of shipping her, and how necessary are the safety features of a trawler necessary for the majority of our cruising. Paying big dollars for features we won't make use of seems unnecessary. Need to put my thinking hat on and look at my bank account.

[RaySea Lady]

Originally Posted by Bill Lee

Hi Ray,
Thanks for your posts. My Admiral concurs with your view. If we weren't interested in getting from Mexico to the PNW and back (multiple times) I doubt we'd need the safety features of a trawler... There's a lot to think about. In a way, our current boat is perfect. We hold 200 gallons of water, 524 gallons of diesel (for a 42' that's great), we can cruise all day long at 26 knots, or slow down to 18 knots and burn less than 15 gph or go slower longer. We've seen rough water and she handles it brilliantly. We don't enjoy rough water and I wouldn't want to bring her from the PNW to Mexico on her own bottom - and certainly NOT back up (as that's supposed to be worse). Once in Mexico - we could cruise her almost anywhere. I guess I have to wrap my mind around how often will we travel up and down the West Coast, the cost of shipping her, and how necessary are the safety features of a trawler necessary for the majority of our cruising. Paying big dollars for features we won't make use of seems unnecessary. Need to put my thinking hat on and look at my bank account.

Hi Bill,

Never been in the PNW and only spent 5 days in the atlantic and out of that there was one day in Norfolk where we stayed in port, even the fishing boats were not going out due to the storm. But we were in a marina every night.

When you go to mexico, would you be going in one pass or stop in marinas at night? If so, then you would travel between 100 and 240 miles per day, if you go in one pass then you definitely need long distance trawler.

For the kind of money you are refering to, you could keep yours in the PNW and buy another and leave it in mexico and not have to make the trip at all. Specially if you are looking at multiple times. You do that ten times and the cost of fuel may be higher than another boat.

[Boatguy30]

It's going to cost you WAY more than 50K a year to run this type of vessel. You'll spend 40K/ yr on fuel alone if you were do a 3 year circumnavig. Figure what 10-15K/yr? for insurance for offshore passages. I suggest you learn to sail or revise your plans.

[RaySea Lady]

Originally Posted by Boatguy30

It's going to cost you WAY more than 50K a year to run this type of vessel. You'll spend 40K/ yr on fuel alone if you were do a 3 year circumnavig. Figure what 10-15K/yr? for insurance for offshore passages. I suggest you learn to sail or revise your plans.

Maybe so, when I brought mine from charleston to Windsor, my fuel costs was $12,980.00. I figure to bring it from Windsor to Miami would be around 18000.00 each way, or $36,000 in fuel alone.

Hell, I could stay at the Ritz Carleton for 2-3 months no problem for that kind of money.

[RaySea Lady]

Hi Bill,

Another option for your 42 footer, to get it down to mexico, you might want to check out using a delivery captain to make the trip for you, it may be cheaper than the cost of shipping it and you don't have to put up with the rough water or the voyage.

then you just fly down to your boat. Sweet !

Or, if your 42 is trailerable, you may be better off to trailer it to mexico. Buying a truck and trailer is cheaper by a lot compared to buying a trawler or to buying another boat and you have a truck at each end of the trip for transportation. Fuel should be a lot less for the truck than the boat.

Sooooo many options...

[Bill Lee]

Ok, now you guys are turning my dream into a nightmare
I love the PNW in the summer but we don't want to liveaboard in the PNW for the winters. Some regular trips back to the PNW would be nice and not overly expensive at a gallon/nm (trawler speeds). Once near Mexico we plan to spend a lot of time there and coastal cruising to Central America and northern South America. We'll probably transit the PC into the Caribbean and 'hang out' before either heading back and doing it all over again, or what-have-you. Our budget will allow for the acquisition of a smallish previously enjoyed trawler (47-53' max depending upon brand). Maybe I should look into a thread on insurance - because you seem to be hinting at a small annual fortune but I haven't seen such big numbers for offshore passages. Yikes...Cheers,
Bill

[RaySea Lady]

Was not on a bubble bursting mission, just stated a few facts.

Best Wishes !

[CarlF]

If you are willing to consider a twin engine boat, I would take a long look at the Marlows. Astounding build quality and attention to detail. Here are three "detail" example that sure would be nice on any boat - sail or power:

1: Marlow owns their own sustainable teak plantation. Each boat has its own teak tree harvested that is used for as much of the interior wood as possible to assure that the grain and color matches.

2: Duplicate fuel fills are located on each side of the boat so hoses don't have to be dragged across the deck. There is also a remote pull handle at the exterior fill point to a crash valve that shuts off the fuel at the tank in case of engine room fire.

3: The anchor chain goes down a tube to move its weight aft off the bow. As the chain goes down the tube it is washed by water jets and the muddy water drops to a dedicated sump with it's own "mud" pump for overboard discharge.

Geez....makes my leaning over the bow with a boat hook to knock off the mud chunks seem pretty lame.

Carl

[Bill Lee]

Hi Carl,
Thanks for the post. YES! I have considered Marlow and 'similar' type boats (Offshore, Outer Reef, etc...). I have NOT excluded any of them but to keep the thead on a more narrow footing I didn't refer to Marlow (and the other meritorious 'similar' contenders). I am used to speed when I need it and that is a factor. I have little information as to the seaworthiness of Marow (and type) vessels in adverse conditions. Any info? Cheers,
Bill

[CarlF]

I looked at the Marlows when I was considering moving from sail to power. I stuck with sail - for now.

Seaworthy? These are all heavy, conservative boats. I think all of them could survive bad offshore conditions if competently handled. Here were the things that I paid attention to:

Rolling: The rolling problem offshore for all these boats is worse than I expected as a sailor. The stabilizing solutions are imperfect. I would not buy one of these boats unless you have been in a nasty beam sea at cruising speeds to see if you and your spouse are comfortable.

Glass (and frames). The Marlows had the best glazing I saw. Modern, bonded glass. Very thick and laminated. The problem with storm shutters is no one puts them on until it's scary rough - then it's dangerous to be outside. You remember Perfect Storm?

Engine problems: 200 miles offshore (of even 20), a little "get home" engine doesn't do it for me. I want to be able to do 5 knots against wind and sea. I think this tips the balance to a twin engine boat (or a sailboat) but at a whole lot of cost and complexity.

Maintainability: All boats of this size take a lot of maintenance. I wanted great initial build quality AND great planning as to how things can be fixed when they break or wear out. The Marlow's were very impressive in this regard - every pipe and wire was labeled. Access panels were everywhere.

Fuel consumption: I made the mistake of letting my wife see the fuel use table in the brochure for a twin engine boat. That was the end. No amount of "It's not bad at 7 knots" could get the 60 GPH out of her head. Fair warning

Carl

[Bill Lee]

Hi Carl,
I guess I planned things pretty well (in hindsight). My wife already knows our fuel consumption figures (gulp gulp gulp) when we cruise at 26 knots or faster. The Marlow (and type boats) have almost identical roll reduction gear as do trawlers - except when those trawlers are equiped with paravanes... Nothing is as efficient as a sail....

[Pelagic]

My marina neighbor has had a Selene (62ft I think) for about 4 years.

For what it's worth....he has never had anything good to say about the builder or their support