Pilgrim 40

[beiland]

Originally Posted by eyschulman

Brian you seem to be set on a steel hull. Have you reviewed Jay Benford's Coaster designs. A slightly different twist on the Pilgrim plot but in the same neighborhood and usually of steel with simple platting patterns. A fair number of boats have been built most over 50 foot. I kind of think 40 feet is on the borderline for steel construction.

Yes I am familiar with Jay Benford's work. In fact I had a meeting with him just prior to my coming over to Thailand for the month. He is on my list of potential designers to work with, but first I have a LOT more up-front work to do on the idea. ....things that need sorting out before placing new lines on paper.

An aside point my vague memory recalls some rancor between the builder-designer of the pilgrim and the duo selling the boats. This I believe had much to do with the cut off of production(you know about that sort of thing). The selling duo went to a different builder for the larger model.

I have done some research on this situation after you first made me aware of it. I do not know all the details, but it does seem odd that no re-introduction of the vessel has been contemplated (nor is it under consideration as I understand it).

Possible they just think it would be far too expensive to bring back to the current market. Look what Dave (a Pilgrim owner had to say about that, Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat )

For what it is worth I think you are spinning your wheels trying to redesign the pilgrim in steel. For those who want a pilgrim or an improved pilgrim buying used has to be-more economical. The few faults of the original design mainly when the boat is used outside its intended purpose can be moderated with modification within reason.

This decision to consider 'frameless steel' construction is not set in stone yet. But it is also influenced by the up-front cost of going back into some kind of limited production without the up-front expense of building molds and other tooling to construct fiberglass hulls that are more expensive to build, and less durable in the long run.

Wait until you see the price I bet I can get on NC precut steel panels to quickly weld together into the basic hull. And if the client is some remote location from the east coast of the USA he/she can have a local steel fabricator built their hull in their local area....BIG savings vs shipping a finished or semi-finished vessel.

After having owned and lived aboard the boat for some years including use in the inland waterway-mid offshore Atlantic-long island sound- Chesapeake bay, and southern New England the only major change I would make is addition of simple bilge keels. I would use a marine architect with a good engineering background and some experience with bilge keels to draw the keels putting emphasis on anti rolling function at rest and underway.

So far in my investigations I have found that most marine architects are in disagreement as to the extent of the viability of 'bilge keels'. And many private owners are unconvinced that they are that effective,...particularly passive ones, and particularly at slow displacement speeds.

I believe the newer gyro-stabilizers are the way to go if someone wants that expense. That was also discussed over HERE
Redesigning the Pilgrim 40 Trawler / Canal Boat - Page 2 - Trawler Forum


Bottom line to all of this effort,....it will be an interesting exercise to come up with a really good redesign, that is affordable to the retiree. But you know I am still unsure about the marketability of this product,...is it just too slow of a boat for most Americans?, ...is the American economy healed well enough for new boats?

I'll keep working on the redesign for the moment as I really like this vessel, but who knows where the project goes in the end.
Regards, Brian

[beiland]

Lets see if I can post a few photos as there does not seem to be many (any) on this subject thread.

[beiland]

Photos that I could not get downloaded recently with my screwed up connection

[eyschulman]

Nice photos. Here on the west coast and spreading to the East the Nordic tugs have sort of picked up where the pilgrim pioneered. The Nordic and American tugs use semi-displacement hulls and allow for slow speed economy plus the ability to go to the mid teens for the American need for speed. They do not have the smooth curving lines of the pilgrim. The market has accepted these boats and they continue to add larger models. I can see the value of pre-cut steel for building hulls but In my experience the hull is always the cheapest and simplest part of the boat. The real crunch comes with the guts and level of finish. So saving 50% on the hull becomes insignificant in the big picture. I would think most production boats spend a lot more on advertising.

[beiland]

Did you notice how I snuck in that last photo of the Trumpy yacht....ha...ha

I think the term 'semi-displacement' is a misnomer. Boats displace water, period. They don't semi-displace water unless they are planning (being pushed beyond their theoretical hull speed limit). Put enough power in and you can push most hulls past their 'hull speed'.

This is the option that Nordic Tug and a LOT of other trawlers in the American market have taken in the past,....more HP, and most often twin engines. You could put a bigger HP engine and different prop in the Pilgrim and push her a little faster.

But I really wonder in this most recent world of much higher fuel prices (and its going to get even greater soon), if the majority of potential buyers would seek this out? And twins, that really adds to the cost of the finished boat (have you seen prices on engines these days), and another hold set of cramped spaces and extra maintenance. (I know you were not suggesting twins, but don't a lot of the Nordic Tugs use twins? ).

I believe one of the real charming factors about the Pilgrim boats was the manner in which they used wood on the interior. I would want to maintain that same appearance, but the challenge is how to do that at a reasonable cost. I have some ideas I am investigating.

Thanks for your challenging input, Brian

[eyschulman]

The West coast tugs are for the most part single motors. A few years back the motors were of moderate Hp no longer so. I fully agree with your thoughts about the use of wood in the interior especially the Hershoff treatment with lots of white surface framed in darker oiled or varnished trim. My present very custom motor boat has such a interior finish and you are right a very expensive way to go. My boat was on the cover of august soundings with a write up and a few pictures.

[beiland]

Maybe I got the wrong impression, but I seem to remember upon visiting their website a month or so ago, that the emphasis was on twin engines?

[eyschulman]

There are 8 Nordic tugs listed for sale in our local boating magazine only two are twins. The original boats were all singles and some where along the line a twin option was added especially in the larger sizes. I do not doubt that the larger boats having been made more recently and in the future will gravitate toward twins. I recently have gone from single to twin and would not go back. My present boat also has bow and stern thrusters a trend that is becoming more common in none IPS boats including the Nordic tugs. I have friends who own a boat yard and the installation of stern thrusters on boats already equipped with bow thrusters is a hot item. There is no question that the twins are more expensive but I and many other boaters buying expensive boats are more than willing to pay the price for the benefits. With my common rail motors I see little in fuel burn difference it takes X amount of HP to push a boat at a given speed one or two motors. The cost of installation and maintenance seems to be the big difference. If I were cruising East coast and rarely went to a dock I might consider a single but not where and how I use a boat now. I believe the market for 40+ ft boats is in the retired older population. This market has the money they are also often the people who want what twins offer. From a marketing standpoint offering the option to go either way is a wise move and that is what Nordic tug has done. I would also point out that in the US market few boats or cars are shunned because they have too much Hp. Unless you plan to go after the boating on a shoestring market(only lucrative in a oil crisis or major market crash) You should think about designing and offering options. Just my two cents

[eyschulman]

I did a follow up check on Yachtworld and found about 30 Nordic tugs with single motors and one 54 footer with twins. I think a pilgrim with twin 50 Hp motors would be interesting. Perhaps the hull would have to be tunneled to get flatter shaft angles. With steel construction the tunnel should not be too difficult.

[beiland]

I noticed that this subject thread had not gotten any attention in the last 4 years. So rather than just trying to revive it under its old 'stale title' I though I might start a new one with a more exciting title,...over here

Prigrim 40, trawler/canal/coastal cruiser, Great Gatsby style

[Matsopenny]

Originally Posted by Captjimmy

My wife and I lived aboard a Tayana37 for several years and thoroughly enjoyed the adventure. After being land bound for about 5 years, we are entertaining the thought of doing the waterway and loop in a trawler. As with most, our desires and budget have a serious conflict. I recently saw the Pilgrim 40 and its successor the PLay 43. I would like anyone with info on the pros and cons of these vessels to chime in. I am particularly interested in why so few were made.
Thanks

We just put our beloved Pilgrim 40 up for sale, she is listed in the classified ads if you want to check it out. As far as I know she is the only one on the market right now.

[eyschulman]

I owned and extensively cruised an early P-40 named Serena. The boat was never a big mass production item and the designer builder lost interest in continuing the project. My take is Ted did not want to get stuck in a rut with one design he appeared to have broader interests. The pros and cons are well documented in the many previous posts. When the boat is used as Ted intended it is a winner. There are even many owners who used the boat outside of the designers intentions and were and are very pleased. The promoters of the boat appeared to be separate from the builder designer and there may have been conflicts of interest.