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Old 01-08-2021, 19:14   #1
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Offer question

Hello

Does anyone have a general copy of offer form I can take a look at? Iím also looking to find out what are the best subjects I should put in to protect myself and leave a window to withdraw if wanted.
Thank you
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Old 07-08-2021, 11:05   #2
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Re: Offer question

I don't think there's a general offer form. If there is, I've never seen one. Brokers write up forms based on the individual boat and any survey findings that need attention.
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Old 07-08-2021, 11:11   #3
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Re: Offer question

Look for a template specific to the state you want to make the purchase in, as rules may vary.
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Old 07-08-2021, 14:18   #4
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Re: Offer question

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Originally Posted by Moretolife View Post
Hello

Does anyone have a general copy of offer form I can take a look at? I’m also looking to find out what are the best subjects I should put in to protect myself and leave a window to withdraw if wanted.
Thank you
If you get a buyer's broker, he/she will have a form.

It's usual to include "Subject to successful marine and mechanical surveys, and sea trial."

I usually add "maintenance records review" and then do that first. If the boat doesn't pass that maintenance records review, walk; no further expenditure required for surveyors and haul-outs, travel, and so forth.

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Old 07-08-2021, 14:49   #5
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Re: Offer question

I think I have one. I'll look. found it: It's attached. Pay close attention to Paragraph 7..... what is a "non performing" buyer? make sure you can reject the boat for any reason. (I'm not saying this is a good or bad contract, just something I collected along the way)

Some buying thoughts:
Read the contract well, pay attention to the clauses about inspection and the rules for you to "opt out" of buying. Most contracts allow the buyer to opt out based on survey/inspection for any reason, even unspecified.
-I have heard of broker's contracts that say they get the commission, or part of it, even if you "opt out". DO NOT accept that.
-Also, You dont want the contract to say "you agree to accept the seller fixing the boat in lieu of your opting out".

You can also mark out and initial any parts you dont like. It may work or not work, but no loss to you if they choose to not accept those changes. Most sellers are wanting to sell and happy for a reasonable offer, willing to work things out.

-If you make any counter offer/changes, BE SURE TO SPECIFY A TIME PERIOD/DATE FOR ACCEPTANCE! Otherwise your counteroffer is good for infinity! Also, a date puts some pressure on. 3 days max.
How do I know this? I sold a boat once and a buyer wrangled with me back and forth and I told him this was my "last counter offer." He disappeared for a week. We figured he was gone.

Meanwhile, Another buyer came along and bought the boat at full price.
The first buyer was mad, got a lawyer and tried to sue because my broker didn't put an end date on the last counter offer. (the contract was all scribbled up by then) I gave him $500 to go away.
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Old 07-08-2021, 23:25   #6
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Re: Offer question

Thank you all so much . It is definitely helpful. What should I specify in the additional terms section? Subjects have their section, but what do you write in the additional terms section? Thank you so much
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Old 08-08-2021, 02:24   #7
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Re: Offer question

id require a maintenance records review, although its a mixed bag on what you get, probably nothing that will be a stoppage. there is a lot of people who dont keep many records, or are really bad at paperwork/record keeping. if they don't have some that's a negative but not a no, depends on context. if it looks bad they may not include that item. or they have kept every receipt and item for the last 10 years and you have to sift through it to figure anything out. you can hide more stuff, or miss stuff in a flood of info and paperwork. some of that may be boat specific so you may not understand all the pieces in regards to your boat, more so if your less knowledgeable on boats. I would make them scan it all and sent it to you however, this gives you an electronic copy to go through and keep for your records, gives thier broker something to do.

obvious one is a stipulation for the hualout and survey. a surveyor can find all sorts of bad things that can help you knock down the price. but its also a good way figure out whats wrong, whats an immediate fix, ect to get your to-do list together. make sure ths is part of your offer and contract. i would schedule all the other surveys before the regular surveyor. that gives the general surveyor something to look at and identify other areas to dig more. or you can use it to double check how surveyor

not sure if you can do it or not but i would have a stipulation that any surveyor has no association with the sellers broker. i didnt have an issue here but ive heard some nightmare tales where all the people looking at the boat for the buyer was related, or friends with, or connected with the broker. used it to hire thier kids or cousins ect, and buyer paid a bunch extra.

i had a requirement for an engine survey with compression test, you should also have an underway at load/full load test. new engines are 20k or more so its critical to figure out if your going to have issues now, or negotiate a repower into the price somehow. more than a few people get underway for the first time in thier new boat and the engine dies out on the water. if they refuse a full power test or compression test, thats a real big red flag, there's a reason for it.

do a test sail, you want to see how everything works and how well it works. there can be a time constraint onthe PO here but it can be a big red flag if they refuse or have a lot of bs excuses.

likewise have a rigging survey make sure the mast and shrouds are good. replacing shroud's and stays can be 5k or more depending on the boat. insurance will be all over this one too. regular surveyor can catch some/alot of this, however he generally doesn't go up the mast to check things, that's why you want the rigging survey

check thruhulls make sure they are good, and comply with ABYC recommendations, no plastic thruhulls below the waterline, not just a ballvalve threaded onto a thruhull, make sure the bronze isnt pink and dezinked - the zinks condition and a dynoplate condition should help give you a good idea on this. check that the stainless shaft/rudderparts/struts ect arent being eaten.

I think id insist on an electrical system survey. hard getting a good electrician you can trust, but the good ones are worth their weight. i seen shady electricians in San Diego, i didn't meet any there i would trust fully. doesn't mean they don't exist. here on the east coast it seems they're so busy you cant get any time. lot of fly by night maybe certified types. have them check the refrigeration unit voltage while running, and the shore power inlet. a lot of boats have tons of scary electrical problems, most caused by the various owners. a good electrician will spot issues really quick. electrical repairs id make sure go into the seller fix it list part of the contract.

depending on the laws in your area regarding the broker price, id get a buyers broker. if i remember right the total amount of brokerage fees is a set percentage with both brokers getting half. if you dont have one all that goes to the sellers broker, since they only care about the sale, not about you thier job is pretty much to get you to sign the dotted line. some can be pretty shiesty. having a buyers broker at least gets someone concerned more with your interests. if you dont get that boat no worries they will bring you to a new one. ficadairy duty kind of thing too i believe. some locations dont have a set brokerage fee so they both could charge a percentage, keep an eye on that in the contract and adjust your counter accordingly. if they are paying the brokers fees on the contract but raise the total offer to account for it, its really you paying. this may be a negotiable part also. if this is the case for your area you will pay more if you bring in another broker so the money part is a wash.

the expensive things or the things that can sink/kill you are what you want to check for and put in the contract a stipulation on for the specific survey. Engine, the sails - condition and age these can be 5-20k depending on the size of the boat, rigging, generator, bottom/blisters/thruhulls - it cost me 5k to redo the bottom had blisters. keep in mind you pay for the surveys, but it was $400 when i bought my boat for a detailed engine survey, new engine 20k, rather know if there is something really wrong even if i intend to go through with the sale so i can account and plan for it at least. worst case its a bad deal and you just walk away.

keep in mind that none of this is necessarily a no go. some of it may be just an owner thing like being a bad paperwork type. the previous owner i bought my boat refused to let me do a compression test with the engine survey, but its an old perkins 4-108 which isnt easy to get such a test and can be grumpy, the PO may not have wanted to be left with issues of such an intrusive task if the sale didnt go through ect. if you start seeing a lot of red flags and the owner /broker feels shady to you, may be time to pull out.

don't get attached/dont let your wife get attached to the boat while this is going down, try to be neutral as you can till you sign.
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Old 08-08-2021, 02:54   #8
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Re: Offer question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
Read the contract well, pay attention to the clauses about inspection and the rules for you to "opt out" of buying. Most contracts allow the buyer to opt out based on survey/inspection for any reason, even unspecified.
-I have heard of broker's contracts that say they get the commission, or part of it, even if you "opt out". DO NOT accept that.
-Also, You dont want the contract to say "you agree to accept the seller fixing the boat in lieu of your opting out".
oh just remembered, put a contingency for having a lawyer review the offer/contract before you accept the sale, and adjust any offer with a time restraint to give you enough time to have a layer review. definitely if you forgo a buyers broker. gives you a last back door to back out if needed, and may prevent contract/offer shadiness if they know a lawyer will look at it. the problem is you may have difficulties finding a lawyer that understands boats, and boat contracts to be able to review it properly. not saying you have to use a lawyer either but give yourself the option.

also review the common salesmen pitches and techniques, real estate and boat brokers are similar to used car salesmen. tons of tricks, lot of brain techniques to help get a sale. not necessarily that they're doing something shady, but if you get attached because they know how to talk a sale, you will forgive red flags or issues that you otherwise wouldn't which can cost you down the road. you want your full attention on the sale and surveys not let yourself get distracted with thoughts of you cruising in the Bahamas, that's after the sale. if you let your significant other get attached it can be a similar distraction. there are a lot of boaters that no little about boats unfortunately, the surveyor can find something they didn't know about that's from the owner before them. I've seen people completely lost to the dream in their mind and this is "The Boat" that they don't give the process the attention they should. this part isn't easy

i didn't have too many issues when i bought, although it may not look like it in my posts. i don't trust brokers much however, their job is self interest even with a buyers broker. I've also seen some really ignorant or shady owners and buyers over the years. the best thing i can tell you is treat the brokers and surveyors as tools, figure out how to use them, and use them all in the best way according to your best interest, even more so if your doing a loan.
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:21   #9
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Re: Offer question

There’s numerous “Offer to Purchase” forms, and tutorials on the net:
E.g.
https://www.discoverboating.com/buyi...t-bill-of-sale

https://www.pfaffmarine.com/wp-conte...-Purchase1.pdf

https://www.google.ca/search?sxsrf=A...w=1147&bih=620
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Old 08-08-2021, 04:33   #10
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Re: Offer question

I always make an offer stating price, any items not normally included, last boat I specified tools since the boat was in a location it would have been hard to take mine for the tripÖ..verbiage about satisfactory survey, financing and insurance. I usually puta time frame on offer also, although I find seller usually is eager to move as fast as I am. The survey can provide for a get out option with little recourse from seller.
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:31   #11
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Re: Offer question

Wow! Thank you all so much. Alaskanviking- that was very kind of you to write such a long detailed post for me, really appreciate that
All your replies are wonderful, thank you all so much.

How should I write the subject to insurance and finance?
Is it subject to insurance approval and subject to finance approval?
Or just say: subject to insurance and subject to finance?
What wording should I use to make it to my benefit?

Once again, thank you so much all of you
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Old 08-08-2021, 11:44   #12
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Re: Offer question

Word of caution.. It's a sellers market and if your contract / offer is too one sided the seller will simple sell to someone else. A contract / offer goal is to facilitate, not give everyone last minute walk away rights.
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Old 08-08-2021, 20:14   #13
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Re: Offer question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moretolife View Post
How should I write the subject to insurance and finance?
Is it subject to insurance approval and subject to finance approval?
Or just say: subject to insurance and subject to finance?
What wording should I use to make it to my benefit?
Honestly we had a buyers broker, and they put that stipulation in. cant remember the specifics of the wording. ours was with a loan so it was something to the affect of subject to finance.

the insurance part may be a little more difficult on the wording. the survey and insurance are similar. technically you cant insure something till the deal is done. maybe a stipulation that everything stays in escrow for 3 days untill insurance meeting whatever specific requirements of the marina or state ect are met. i put it in my list because i know people that have run afoul of insurance companies. there was things on the survey they hadn't thought were a big deal on the survey but the insurance made them do a bunch of work before they would insure them. nothing absolutely horrid but there were a few bigger $ repairs that they would have like to go on the loan. marina freaks out if you don't have insurance so your kind of in the middle in this situation. i suspect this is a location or specific insurance company thing to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EngineerRetired View Post
Word of caution.. It's a sellers market and if your contract / offer is too one sided the seller will simple sell to someone else. A contract / offer goal is to facilitate, not give everyone last minute walk away rights.
100%. i felt the whole process was a pain honestly. each one of all the points in these posts you kind of use as a tool and adapt to the situation. different strategy's and goals for the different points also. for example;

General survey and insurance is more about keeping the future marina and insurance company happy so you can keep the boat there. if there is an issue with insurance the marina can send you away.

surveys can be used to negotiate, less in a sellers market. there is also a safety component here ie the electrical survey comes back with major issues , but they are also important for you to get your list of to-dos if you keep the boat. that electrical problem means you would immediately do an electrical refit ect. an electrical issue like that would worry the insurance company. so the strategy could be to include the work as part of the sale, or loan. you may have to have a good conversation about this with the seller or their broker so they understand what your doing.

there is a negotiation on some of this, and there may be some give and play, so you dont want to write a war declaration. you also dont want to find out later that your forced to buy a lemon, and it now needs 50k to stay afloat or move. for us there was a little battle for a couple days about the engine compression test. I'm a cummin's marine diesel mechanic, pulling the injectors and doing a pressure test isnt a big deal. my goal was to use the numbers with the rest of the engine survey to determine health of the engine. boat was in Berkely/San Francisco i lived in San Diego. for the perkins 4-108 its not easy, and requires a special adapter and extra copper gaskets to do a compression test. the fuel system is a bugger to bleed sometimes and isn't necessarily intuitive to do so. if the sale didn't go through and the mechanic didn't do something right the PO would have been stuck with the mess. i folded on this and it irritated me for a few years, until i had worked on the engine enough, and been in the civilian boating community more, and it all kind of made more sense. in a seller market there may be more "risks" you have to accept.

somethings you may want to put on the loan. you work this out with the seller, and you get to do most of the research and work to do it. for instance i made sure to get a qoute and put fuel polishing on the contract. but i worked it out with the seller and i increased the price of the offer to cover it. i think it was $300 at the time, which isn't horrible but i had to move the boat south after i bought it, and had a bit of a time schedule due to work, so i wanted to put more stuff on the loan, so i could keep more cash in my pocket in case there was an emergency or unexpected boat repair.

parts of that list can be more like steps and you dont put them all in at first (depends on situation). ie you found a blister or some other small problem, the surveyor or specialist surveyor takes that info and does more of an inspection on that part to see if its just that one issue, or maybe its a systematic problem on the whole boat ie boat is waterlogged ect. so you work it out with the seller that they pay for the repair or reduce the price, or if you love the boat that much so you put the work on the loan or pay out of pocket. that can be an expensive repair that can take a long time so even if you ended up paying for everything in your negotiation, i would still make sure it was written in the contract as a CYA thing. i have seen some bad law suits where an almost buyer got sucked in to court as a witness against A PO that screwed the next guy. i have found with boats ANYTHING can happen and its better to collect such evidence or plan for the worst and hope for the best. if you need it you will have it and if you don't it wont matter. if you don't have it and end up needing it its almost a guarantee you will really need it and there will be little you can do.

the biggest takeaway is preponderance of evidence. if you start seeing signs and your gut tells you something may be wrong, add stipulations. if you continually keep seeing evidence that there are problems at each step, thats when you have to go look in the mirror and take your emotions out and really decide if you want to continue. even if you spent your own money it could be time to run. i have seen some of those lemons, once you own it your stuck, and its difficult to watch someone go through. boats can be a pain in the A anyway, a small project can lead to your tearing apart the boat and rebuild it at the best of times, so it helps if you start off in better shape.

constant communication is the key with all of this. Most boat owners and some of the brokers are not shady. but the PO can be tired and disinterested or there is some that are opportunistic or greedy that you want to make sure there is enough controls in place to protect you. if you don't have the conversation, or the seller gets their feelings hurt by all of the stipulations (have seen that too) they could go sell elsewhere, so there is a balance, which may not be easy. goal is not to get screwed, and to get the boat you want.

be careful a sellers market means bidders wars and a general heightened emotional sense with in the market. people get zoned in and get to the point where they just want any deal, not necessarily a good deal as boats get snatched up left and right. seen that in 2009 when i bought my house and things were starting to go back to normal. covid toilet paper panic is similar, at some point people just aren't thinking rationally and in the case of boats there are a lot of boat owners that are ignorant and are getting excited about prices going up.
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Old 25-09-2021, 23:38   #14
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Re: Offer question

As a seller why would you want to deal with a buyer who wants to nit-picket everything? Buyers bring negotiations and cash, tire kicker bring drama and demands.
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Old 26-09-2021, 00:20   #15
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Re: Offer question

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Originally Posted by EngineerRetired View Post
Word of caution.. It's a sellers market and if your contract / offer is too one sided the seller will simple sell to someone else. A contract / offer goal is to facilitate, not give everyone last minute walk away rights.
Exactly, if someone gave me a signed offer and said it only counted after they had a legal review ( as suggested above), I'd simple say fine, go get it reviewed and give me an offer you are willing to stick to.
It is a mutual agreement to document the terms of a sale, not a one sided how do I bail out if I get cold feet,
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