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03-06-2018, 19:55
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#151
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Nuclear subs as well as the solar powered ICBMs they launch
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04-06-2018, 07:15
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#152
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Miami, fl
Boat: Hatteras 53, 26' gaffer, 12' catboat
Posts: 10
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
I installed an electric inboard on my 26' centerboard gaffrigged sloop about 4 years ago. I used a kit from Thunderstruck in California, about 10hp, with belt reduction, Sevcon controller and a 48v battery bank (8 gold cart batteries)
It works fine to get on and off the mooring, docking and get home when the wind dies.
I went with an electric because the centerboard layout would have made it difficult to install a small inboard. I didn't want an outboard as it would have just killed the looks of the boat (classic design with strip planked hull)
First motor was air cooled which didn't work very well in a salty environment... no surprise. I replaced it with their latest offering which is water cooled. I have a very small electric small circulation pump hooked up to a small 5 gallon tank. The gear reduction uses steel hardware which looks pretty ugly by now although they now have a stainless version.
In theory the kit should allow regen under sail but Thunderstuck told me up front it just doesn't work on monohulls which don't go fast enough
The set up works for us, as a daysailor.
For larger boats, i think the only benefits are more flexibility in interior layout. Since the motors are much smaller you don't need an engine room at the end of the shafts and could install the generator(s) elsewhere. Is it worth it? Probably not.
Maybe at some point automotive technology will trickle down to the marine industry but I don't think we re there yet
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04-06-2018, 07:37
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#153
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: oriental
Boat: crowther trimaran 33
Posts: 4,414
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pascalG
I installed an electric inboard on my 26' centerboard gaffrigged sloop about 4 years ago. I used a kit from Thunderstruck in California, about 10hp, with belt reduction, Sevcon controller and a 48v battery bank (8 gold cart batteries)
It works fine to get on and off the mooring, docking and get home when the wind dies.
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Don't just stick an electric motor on the same shaft. Powering with electric this way is not very efficient. Try adding pedals to a conventional car and pedaling it around. It will go very slow and be difficult. Who would do that? Why do people keep suggesting this for boats?
The existing inboard shaft is too heavy, and has too much friction to get high efficiency. The existing propeller is too small and heavy and optimized for convenience not efficiency. You need a carbon fiber propeller 24-36 inch diameter for that boat. Using a belt reduction rather than planetary gears is also wasteful especially since you need a 60:1 reduction. Finally, having a 10hp electric motor on such a small boat results in a lot of friction, it should be less than 1hp
Then you could have just 2 batteries instead of 8 and get the same range at 3-4 knots.
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04-06-2018, 07:42
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#154
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Miami, fl
Boat: Hatteras 53, 26' gaffer, 12' catboat
Posts: 10
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
I designed and built the boat so the installation was done from scratch not reusing an existing shaft. I used a PSS shaft seal which has less friction than a conventional stuffing box.
24 to 36" prop, that s funny. Real easy to fit on a 26 footer
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04-06-2018, 07:45
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#155
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Florids
Boat: Morgan O/I 305, 1977 MONARK IV
Posts: 8
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Some basics having worked diesel electric and have a torqueedo 1003...at this point we have a 1003 on a dink is great - by lady can hand it to me and storage is very safe in hide-a-way space, charges on 12 vdc, long shaft on 10 foot is perfect and we changed to a three blade (came with two blade). The electric drive for bigger boats is use for local trips and if your going to cruise, finding parts and fuel is much easier, but electric is a future. Note: generators in compartment is or must have water and exhaust - portable gen on deck is just needed to be tied down...remember exhaust which is a killer. Batteries do some exhaust also.
Trick to all...use copper anti-seize on all electrical connections, terminals, batt connect, switches, ECT. Stops crossion and reduces line resistance...I have use on control systems and everywhere on vessels.
__________________
captpage
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04-06-2018, 13:30
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#156
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: SE Florida
Boat: Carver Santego 27 - Chops Ahoy!
Posts: 4
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
My son is trying to convert to electric power. He has managed to blow up his 2012 Mini, and is working on doing his conversion using a Nissan Leaf motor.
In talking about my 1989 Carver Santego 27, which has famously unreliable motors, he suggested I convert it. It has two Mercruiser 3.7LX motors driving outdrives. On the rare occasions they run they are great. The boat can be run economically as a trawler, but despite its tub looking shape, hops up on plane very easily.
So I've been playing with numbers on paper using a car motor making things as simple as possible. So far I have invested a lot of time and zero dollars.
My conclusions so far are that Leaf or Tesla motors (used) are the way to go; definitely AC and water cooled. They have the torque and power needed and are available cheap. Also very reliable.
But then I am stuck with the problem everybody has - Range. A typical one way trip for me might be 7 miles at hull speed (no wake zone), then 60 miles of open water, with unpredictable Florida Straits weather and current. Using a similar battery pack to a Nissan Leaf (one for each motor), I estimate I would have about a 20 mile range on open water at a reasonable cruising speed, maybe 75% of maximum speed. At hull speed I might make it to Bimini.
The boat was designed with a lot of amenities for its size; but no place for a generator. I doubt if I could get more than 100 sq feet of solar panels - which is like nothing for a trip. (There is enough sunshine here to fully charge the batteries for five days before a weekend)
So it looks like the project is dead in the water (pun intended) until Elon Musk comes up with something better.
I'll still be following this forum.
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04-06-2018, 14:42
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#157
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Reefton, New Zealand
Boat: George Stadel traditional gaff rigged 26'
Posts: 8
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
In New Zealand it does make sense environmentally to use electric engines even if batteries are recharged from a plug in a wall as most of our electricity is produced from hydroelectric power plants. I am interested in putting an electric engine into my 26 ft yacht but am waiting for the next generation of batteries and solar panels. Has anyone used graphene enhanced batteries??
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04-06-2018, 14:45
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#158
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Reefton, New Zealand
Boat: George Stadel traditional gaff rigged 26'
Posts: 8
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Great information thanks. I have a 26 ft gaff rigged boat that I need an inboard for. Currently using an outboard.
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04-06-2018, 15:20
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#159
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerstin
Has anyone used graphene enhanced batteries??
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Advances in technology you hear of in media can take decades to reach the market.
If ever.
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04-06-2018, 16:28
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#160
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South Florids
Boat: Morgan O/I 305, 1977 MONARK IV
Posts: 8
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captpage
Some basics having worked diesel electric and have a torqueedo 1003...at this point we have a 1003 on a dink is great - by lady can hand it to me and storage is very safe in hide-a-way space, charges on 12 vdc, long shaft on 10 foot is perfect and we changed to a three blade (came with two blade). The electric drive for bigger boats is use for local trips and if your going to cruise, finding parts and fuel is much easier, but electric is a future. Note: generators in compartment is or must have water and exhaust - portable gen on deck is just needed to be tied down...remember exhaust which is a killer. Batteries do some exhaust also.
Trick to all...use copper anti-seize on all electrical connections, terminals, batt connect, switches, ECT. Stops crossion and reduces line resistance...I have use on control systems and everywhere on vessels.
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Adding to my comments - Best electric so far for the under 40 ft boater is a sail boat, is to launch and dock in a ten mile area, getting to and from sailing area.
The drive with a self-centering prop works great or an outboard that can be lifted from water. Any other applications is in the future because of cost!
As for gas to diesel is diesel is safer and modern gas has to many problems with stability in high morsture area and buying location. Do not forget what gas does to certain plastic parts and carbs.
For those talking shafts and props please remember the ease of buying parts, corrosion/electrolist, strength and flex. The best is very slick bottom and bold rudder...outboard...works great for main vessel and dink.
Torqudeo site shows power vessels doing amazing things - check it out!
GOD Speed - Page
__________________
captpage
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08-06-2018, 08:24
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#161
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: British Columbia & Cape Coral
Boat: Beneteau 311
Posts: 153
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
The energy density of good Lithium batteries is about one tenth that of Diesel, so be prepared to install a lot of batteries at huge cost if you want a practical range. Lithium batteries also have an unfortunate tendency to immolate themselves. It's bad enough watching your Tesla burn to the ground, but much worse on an open ocean.
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08-06-2018, 14:42
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#162
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cruiser
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: Retired from CF
Posts: 13,317
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Lithium is an umbrella term for many different chemistries with very widely differing susceptibilities to thermal runaway.
LFP is very safe, and widely used in marine applications, but mostly House banks.
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08-06-2018, 20:11
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#163
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Indian Harbour Beach
Boat: Gallart 13.50 MS
Posts: 131
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pasogrande
...
But then I am stuck with the problem everybody has - Range.
...
So it looks like the project is dead in the water (pun intended) until Elon Musk comes up with something better.
I'll still be following this forum.
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I hate to say it, but waiting for the range of diesel, in a battery, is probably going to take longer than either of our life spans. Even if someone figured out the battery, it would take some insane gear to put that much power into it. Electric motors are always going to be niche things in the boating world. Big ships will use them for the same reason trains do, no transmission to worry about. Tiny stuff like dinks will use them because they only do short trips. Long range motoring is always going to need dino juice.
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08-06-2018, 22:36
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#164
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: British Columbia & Cape Coral
Boat: Beneteau 311
Posts: 153
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
There is one battery, Lithium-Air, which promises an equivalent energy density to Diesel. They only exist in the lab though, and may never become practical.
It's true that Lithium-Phosphate batteries are less prone to bursting into flames. Energy density is lower than Lithium ion though, so you need more of them. Tesla use Lithium ion to get a reasonable range out of their vehicles -17,000 cells to power a car.
I calculated the solar charging requirements for a "green" cat a few years back, and in Florida, it was weeks of charging with the whole boat covered with solar cell to get a few hours motoring.
Going electric means paying lots of money for poor performance.
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09-06-2018, 01:51
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#165
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Sydney, Australia
Boat: Roberts 45
Posts: 1,034
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Re: Electric Drive: Who uses it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ctsbillc
[...]
It's true that Lithium-Phosphate batteries are less prone to bursting into flames. [...].
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The original post made it sound as if Lithium-Ion batts are being used on boats as house batts, which is not the case.
Hence the hint that they might catch fire on a boat while out on the ocean doesn't help. Since one uses LFPs on a boat I wouldn't compare their safety with that of a different technology used in cars.
Apples and oranges.
I couldn't find any credible source of LFPs catching fire spontaneously or even under heaviest load.
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