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22-07-2021, 14:50
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#31
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Cowichan Bay, BC (Maple Bay Marina)
Posts: 9,764
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Re: Big but not fancy?
See if you can find a book by Hart Massey called Travels with Lionel. They bought a barge in The Netherlands. Very detailed helpful right up your alley. Fun read, too.
__________________
Stu Jackson
Catalina 34 #224 (1986) C34IA Secretary
Mill Bay, BC, SR/FK, M25, Rocna 10 (22#) (NZ model)
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22-07-2021, 14:52
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#32
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Australia
Boat: Milkraft 60 ex trawler
Posts: 4,651
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNaomi
That's... a lot more encouraging!
I'll obviously have to research what the heck we would need to pay to maintain a very specific boat when we find a boat we want, because it's pretty clearly wildly variable depending on boat, location, and who you talk to!
Is expected maintainable costs something that the person who does your survey can tell you? If not, who would I ask? (I know that one of the things I should be doing is to look at the existent maintenance records to show what it *has* cost to maintain that boat, but that is only an accurate prediction if they've been keeping up all along with what they should be doing.)
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I should qualify that with that's our costs for two weeks out of water doing everything hull related by skilled shipwrights.
General maintenance like oil and filters, pumps and impellers, hose replacement, a bit of paint, basic plumbing and electrical etc we do ourselves.
We don't use marinas at all, we are continually on the move.
Marinas would add $1500 a month to costs.
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22-07-2021, 14:56
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#33
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 20
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60
I should qualify that with that's our costs for two weeks out of water doing everything hull related by skilled shipwrights.
General maintenance like oil and filters, pumps and impellers, hose replacement, a bit of paint, basic plumbing and electrical etc we do ourselves.
We don't use marinas at all, we are continually on the move.
Marinas would add $1500 a month to costs.
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Gotcha. That still sounds okay. We would need a moorage point, but at that price or anything similar, we can afford it; the combination of $1500 a month and $15,000 a year still comes to less than our current rent.
We can probably learn to do the basic maintenance ourselves... some of us have handled boats before and my husband has done maintenance on everything from automobiles to airplanes. It'll need to be learned, but we're good with that.
P.S. Thank you to the responder one comment up, who recommended the book "Travels with Lionel." I have ordered it, and look forward to reading!
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22-07-2021, 16:10
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#34
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Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 6,554
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Re: Big but not fancy?
If I may have one more kick at the cat, Naomi:-)
Here is a boat I've actually been aboard - the very one depicted. The type may actually meet your desiderata, so scull around and see what Carri-Crafts you can find on HolyMotherNet. Just to get some ideas perhaps :-) The type is 50 years old, but fibreglass hulls are usually, at least in our climate - similar to Holland's - quite alright at that age.
https://www.usedvictoria.com/classif...maran_33354144
This particular boat had twin Caterpillar diesels, and the starboard one was blowing black smoke quite copiously. The "coachroof", the roof over the main cabins which served as a "sundeck", was going soft, and the railings yielded noticeably as I put a little weight behind my pushing on them.
But all old boats have remediable faults. The question is always what the remedy will cost. I reckoned for a number of reasons that to deal with the boats engine problems would cost about Ca$120K, and the coach roof and railings, maybe another Can$90K
Even so, the layout might, as I say, satisfy your desiderata, and the actual appointments in the boat I was in were really quite pleasant.
Once again - all the best
TP
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22-07-2021, 17:23
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#35
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 20
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Re: Big but not fancy?
TP, you can throw ideas at me for as long as it takes till you get bored. (But you can't kick the cat; she objects. )
I've run into a couple of Carri-Crafts and liked what I saw. As you say, they're mostly older and that inevitably means problems; so long as I find out what problems before I buy -- which is the province of a good buyer's broker and an even better surveyor -- and fixing them fits within my total budget, I'm okay with that. I'll keep my eyes open for the name.
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22-07-2021, 17:46
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#36
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Moderator
Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 21,564
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Now it happens that displacement is a very suitable proxy for estimating maintenance expense required over the long term.
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TP, can you supply sources for that relationship? It is hard to see it being very uniform over different sorts of boats, and to me the extrapolation from your smallish yacht to a large motor vessel of unknown construction and age seems unlikely to provide a useful result. And Simi60's actual costs seem quite in contrast...
None the less, for the OP careful analysis of maintenance and moorage costs are surely important and will loom large in the viability of your proposal... and it sounds like you are now aware of the issue.
One other factor that I haven't noted being discussed: above some specified size, some jurisdictions require qualified crew if the boat is to be navigated, especially in canal/river situations. I dunno about your proposed location, but you might factor such things in when deciding how large a vessel to buy.
Good luck in your efforts. As a very long term live aboard cruiser, I know how rewarding life afloat can be...
Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II, lying Port Cygnet Tasmania once again.
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22-07-2021, 17:53
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#37
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 20
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate
One other factor that I haven't noted being discussed: above some specified size, some jurisdictions require qualified crew if the boat is to be navigated, especially in canal/river situations. I dunno about your proposed location, but you might factor such things in when deciding how large a vessel to buy.
Good luck in your efforts. As a very long term live aboard cruiser, I know how rewarding life afloat can be...
Jim
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Thanks, Jim! I know in principle about the laws regarding crew requirements above a certain size, but I'll need to find out precisely what size, and what exactly constitutes qualified crew, for that matter. I can't imagine buying and living in a boat without taking some pretty extensive lessons in how to handle it, but I don't know just what the requirements are for crewing at what sizes. Something to check with my Dutch lawyer.
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22-07-2021, 23:26
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#38
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Florida
Boat: Hunter 27, 1978
Posts: 538
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Re: Big but not fancy?
(watching for updates)
__________________
SailingFan
1978 Hunter 27
Learning by the day!
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23-07-2021, 00:41
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#39
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Nearly an old salt
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Lefkas Marina ,Greece
Boat: Bavaria 36
Posts: 22,801
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PocketNaomi
Thanks, Jim! I know in principle about the laws regarding crew requirements above a certain size, but I'll need to find out precisely what size, and what exactly constitutes qualified crew, for that matter. I can't imagine buying and living in a boat without taking some pretty extensive lessons in how to handle it, but I don't know just what the requirements are for crewing at what sizes. Something to check with my Dutch lawyer.
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The break point is 24 m in Europe
__________________
Interested in smart boat technology, networking and all things tech
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23-07-2021, 00:43
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#40
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 20
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
The break point is 24 m in Europe
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Thanks!
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26-07-2021, 11:20
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Your #1 worry is getting a registered address in the municipality you will reside in. When you move to the Netherlands you will need an approved address to be able to register at the municipal population register (BPA, Basisregistratie Personen). Without registration it is nearly impossible to have any dealings with all levels of government bureaucracy, insurance companies etc. Also you will likely need it to report to the Alien Police (AVIM) in your area as a visa holder. As a freelancer, even if you clients are solely outside Holland or even the EU, you will have to register with the Trading Board (KVK, Kamer van Koophandel) at the address you physically live. Not sure about your specific Visa, but likely you also have to register and pay for the various social, unemployment, retirement and health and workerscomp insurances premiums. Local taxes, real estate taxes (yes for a boat), water board fees, radio and tv license fee etc. the list seems endless. There is even a notional rental value tax, where, if you own your own house, not paying rent is deemed imputed income so you have to pay tax on that (huurwaardeforfait/eigendomsforfait)
In order to get an address you will need a lease agreement or purchase contract. You cannot just use a friend's or family address, as it will greatly affect their tax status and/or benefits they receive. It has to be a physical address approved for human habitation (you can't just rent an office space and claim to be living there). Staying at a marina, temporary mooring or boatyard won't qualify.
Moving from one place to another means deregistering in the last place, getting a transfer notice to be able to register in the next (The last city you are moving from will want to know your new address of the city you are moving to to be able to deregister you). This population register is the backbone of the public administration.
A possible solution is to buy a boat that has documented 'rights' to its mooring for that specific boat and has a 'certified' address that your municipality will accept for registration (these rights are often more valuable than the boat itself) Another solution is to rent an apartment or house, making sure you will have the right to register at that address(particularly in subletting situations and also be careful with 'holiday' houses, they often do not have the rights for permanent occupation, therefore they do not qualify as a permanent address or registration) Use that place as your base and have a boat to putter around in for (extended) trips.
Remember width and draft will limit your flexibility to go where you want to go greatly and steel is an economic and common hull material used in the Netherlands even for sailing boats, most small and medium boatyards can work with it.
The Netherlands like most Northwest European Countries are highly organised and regulated societies for law-abiding citizens to live in (you can also easily game the system, but this forum is not the place to discuss that) and a lot gets done there because people have highly connected networks, insider knowledge and time (+ luck sometimes))
Without this it can be hard and frustrating for an outsider to navigate these intricate societies initially.
Good luck and remember - If it was that easy, way more Dutchies would be living on the water the way you plan to do.
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26-07-2021, 11:46
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 20
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Thank you for the details, Walvisch. We're absolutely going to stay within the law -- we're going to be guests in somebody else's country until we're able to ask for citizenship years down the line, and I frankly consider it rude to come in as a guest with the intention of breaking the house rules. We're not like that. We will find a way to have a registered address even if it means we don't get to do the boat for longer than we'd hoped. My preference if we can do it is to buy an already-housed boat which comes with the mooring place as part of the sale, because I know that those transferable real estate based permanent moorages *do* qualify as an official address... but if we do that, it would necessarily mean using one of the kind of boat that are in those spaces, and that's outside of the range of this group. I'm also not sure we could find one which has enough room for our family. The floating houses -- the ones that are actual houses on water platforms, and don't move -- are also possible, though it would take away a lot of the reason we want to be in a boat in the first place if we can't move it. Finally, we might combine methods... get a floating house or just a land rental, and a boat we can travel in but don't live aboard at first. That would mean our first boat could be smaller and less expensive, since it wouldn't be a full time home. Eventually, maybe we could move up to a liveaboard when we have more freedom to move around, even if that takes until we have our citizenship.
We'll manage. If it doesn't look like what we'd hoped for, but it gets us out on the water somehow, we'll be okay.
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26-07-2021, 11:48
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#43
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4
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Re: Big but not fancy?
Quote:
Originally Posted by walvisch
Your #1 worry is ...
Good luck and remember - If it was that easy, way more Dutchies would be living on the water the way you plan to do.
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I didn't mean to be such a 'Debbie-downer' on your plans, but I've migrated from the Netherlands, lived for extended periods in Australia, New Zealand, China, Canada, Romania, Hungary, Germany and now the USA. From expat style living to fully integrated member of the society. I know it is not always easy, even with corporate assistance. To think you are smarter than the locals is a mistake I've made myself. I humbly suggest, when Europe opens up again, you start by spending an extended period just living there to see if this can work for you, before putting down large sums of money and uprooting your family. You can spend 90 days in a six month period there (Schengen Area) and mix that with spending time in Great Britain and parts of the Balkans (outside Schengen) Furnished rentals, AirBNB, you can still work remotely 'Under the radar' and no-one is the wiser.
Also may I suggest you research other digital nomad/global worker visas they may much more accommodating to your situation (Baltic States and Croatia have good ones)
Lastly as a 'cloggie' I can honestly say, that whilst I love to visit Holland every once in a while, you couldn't pay me to live there again.
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26-07-2021, 12:02
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#44
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 20
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Re: Big but not fancy?
I'm not at all under the impression that I'm smarter than the Dutch about living in their own country! On the contrary, I'm trying to learn from what my Dutch friends do. What I didn't know was that I wouldn't be allowed to follow what I saw some of them doing as long as I was still an immigrant. I can respect that, I just didn't know it. Thank you for filling me in.
I'm already planning to do the visiting thing you recommend. However, we're not just choosing the Netherlands because they have a convenient immigration law; we also have dear friends there, and want to live near them. We have a few other options if we truly can't live there, including one where I know we'd be allowed to live on a boat... but our first priority is to rejoin my best childhood friend, who moved to Amsterdam several years ago and has been thriving there.
Finally, I understand too well your view that there isn't enough money in the world to pay you to live in the Netherlands again -- because it's how I feel about the United States. The world has room for all sorts.
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26-07-2021, 12:55
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#45
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Marine Service Provider
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Lahaina
Boat: 2021 Antrim 42 Happy Cruising Junk
Posts: 7
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Re: Big but not fancy?
You didn't mention whether you wanted a sailing vessel or a motor one. If you bought it or had it built in the US, would you then sail/motor it to the Netherlands?
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