Big but not fancy?

[Simi 60]

They are out there ask me how I know.

A couple of recents that have semi interested me


A bit underpowered but has some space
Price a repower into the purchase price
https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-...tamaran/262862

My current favourite with pogo stick headroom in the ER.



https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats...-vessel/247859

[goboatingnow]

Note that anything over 24 metres falls into a different category in Europe requiring all sorts of additional safety , and qualified STC95 OOW etc.

[MicHughV]

My advice.....brush up on your Dutch......while many Dutch are conversant with English, speaking in the native tongue will go a long way.

There is little point coming here to this forum to decide on a boat. That decision needs to be made in Holland. There are boats a-plenty in Holland. Of every description. Just put the word out, once you are there, and somebody will likely point you in the right direction

[PocketNaomi]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

Naomi:

Are you still with us? You've had some very good advice in the posts above, but there is still lots to say. If you are still interested, sing out :-)!

TP

Yes, I'm still here! I've been reading the answers and thinking about it.



To answer those who have asked why we want to live on a boat, there's a handful of reasons. First of all, we just like them! All of us have had experience living in unusual settings, from geodesic domes to tiny houses on wheels; and all of us love the water. Second of all, our Dutch friends tell us that it's consistently less expensive to live on the water in the Netherlands than on land, even accounting for purchase AND maintenance AND mooring. There's enough water there, and enough people who really don't want to live on boats, that there's far more competition for ordinary homes on land, and therefore the prices are astronomical. We are taking into account that we'll need to moor and maintain the boat, and that's coming out of a separate budget.



Finally, we're travelers. We do intend to base ourselves chiefly in the Netherlands in one spot, but we're not planning to stay put full time. We want something we can take elsewhere... both for pleasure and for safety, since the world is becoming a dangerous enough place that it's worthwhile ensuring that you can, if need be, pick up your home and take it somewhere else in a hurry.



I really like the idea someone recommended of buying cheap and doing our own refit. My brother is a skilled carpenter; while there is certainly a lot of the work we would need to hire out, we could do some of it ourselves and save money. I've always loved doing my own interior design and I'm pretty good at it, with experience in multiple renovations on land. There's a good deal I'd need to learn about what's different on the water, but that's learnable with time. If we can afford the combination of a feasible starting boat and the renovation process, it would be ideal for us -- and yes, I know we'd need to be careful to keep the design resaleable, but I've done that before, successfully.



In answer to those who tell me I'll need to find our boat when we arrive, I know that. I'm not looking for specific boats right now, so much as for a general direction of type, and the pros and cons of different categories. I'm not going to be fool enough to buy a boat in the US that I have to get across the Atlantic; I know how much that runs up the price.



Finally, in answer to the question about the family members who would need to qualify for immigration in their own right, we know that. We have reason to believe that my brother qualifies on separate grounds, and my kid's partner is likely to be married to them by the time we go, as well as being plausibly able to take advantage of the same law we do. I think it'll be all right, though of course there's never any guarantees in immigration applications... for any of us. We can only try.



Everyone, thank you for your answers! You've all given me a lot to think about.

[Quadrille in JB]

Don't discount the Dutch barges. We visited several where the owners graciously allowed us to tour the interiors. As they were designed to carry cargo, the holds are voluminous. These barges were each over 100 years old and the interiors were finished off to the owners needs and desires.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_barge

[MicHughV]

Dutch is my mother tongue, and I've been to Holland many, many times.

There was a time when I considered doing what you are planning to do, and my relatives in Holland took me around the country to look at boats. There is no end to the selection available. Every conceivable type, size and cost is available there.

While the modern Dutch youth is fairly conversant with English, the same cannot be said about the old salts there, which is why I said to brush up on your Dutch.

My recommendation stands. You will do better starting your search there. You will need a Dutch broker that knows the ropes and the area. Many around. You will likely end up looking at several different vessels, and in different parts of the country, till you find something along the lines you want and can afford. Besides the selection available, so too are yards where you can perform whatever re-build your heart and wallet desires. At this point in time, your "home base" could end up being anywhere in Holland, most likely in the spot where you will end buying a boat.

This cruising form is not quite the same thing for what you want. Seeing a photo does not even remotely compare with seeing the real thing......entirely different thing.

But, at the end of the day, it's your choice, I realize that.

[TrentePieds]

Naomi:

Good to see you back :-)! I'll be outta here very shortly and therefore don't have time to "pontificate" this ayem. I'll look for you again when I pick up the WIFI on the other side, most likely tomorrow morning :-)

TP

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by PocketNaomi

Finally, in answer to the question about the family members who would need to qualify for immigration in their own right, we know that. We have reason to believe that my brother qualifies on separate grounds, and my kid's partner is likely to be married to them by the time we go, as well as being plausibly able to take advantage of the same law we do. I think it'll be all right, though of course there's never any guarantees in immigration applications... for any of us. We can only try.

Just out of curiosity, what is this law you are referencing?

Typically resident status for non-citizens requires some justification...job, schooling, retired with minimum income. Some countries have exemptions for those with close relatives who are citizens.

Not saying your group might not qualify but is seems oddly vague the way you phrase it.

[PocketNaomi]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Just out of curiosity, what is this law you are referencing?

Typically resident status for non-citizens requires some justification...job, schooling, retired with minimum income. Some countries have exemptions for those with close relatives who are citizens.

Not saying your group might not qualify but is seems oddly vague the way you phrase it.

My brother is hoping to come via the retirement with minimum income provision; the rest of us on the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, which is made for self-employed people who are interested in putting a fairly minimal amount of initial money into starting a small business in the Netherlands. I already have friends who've moved there successfully by that method, and it allows you to bring family. One of the immediate nuclear family would therefore need to qualify on those grounds, as would my kid's partner (separately, in a business of their own), but several of us are freelancers anyhow; we're the kind of workers that law was made for. We've spoken with lawyers and have reason to believe it can work.

And yes, I am working on my Dutch.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

My advice.....brush up on your Dutch......while many Dutch are conversant with English, speaking in the native tongue will go a long way.

There is little point coming here to this forum to decide on a boat. That decision needs to be made in Holland. There are boats a-plenty in Holland. Of every description. Just put the word out, once you are there, and somebody will likely point you in the right direction

Actually there’s a massive shortage at the moment.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by PocketNaomi

My brother is hoping to come via the retirement with minimum income provision; the rest of us on the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, which is made for self-employed people who are interested in putting a fairly minimal amount of initial money into starting a small business in the Netherlands. I already have friends who've moved there successfully by that method, and it allows you to bring family. One of the immediate nuclear family would therefore need to qualify on those grounds, as would my kid's partner (separately, in a business of their own), but several of us are freelancers anyhow; we're the kind of workers that law was made for. We've spoken with lawyers and have reason to believe it can work.

And yes, I am working on my Dutch.

Sounds reasonable if you qualify.

[TrentePieds]

Alright, Naomi – where wuz we :-)?

Your desiderata suggest a boat of about 70 feet over all length. That in turn, given the interconnectedness of all parameters employed in boat (and ship) design suggests a boat of about 60-odd tons displacement. Whether it be power of sail doesn't matter much at this stage of the consideration.

What I have to say below, I will be saying to suggest to you a MANNER of thinking about boats, a manner that landsmen don't usually adopt intuitively. So just follow me through the argument, Then you will be in a better position to evaluate for yourself the viability of you proposed plan. As I don't know you, I cannot know if this sort of analysis is one you habitually employ. If it is, then please forgive me. I don't mean to be presumptuous. I DO mean to help you think along lines that could save a landswoman with no particular boating experience from an extremely costly mistake. So here goes:-):

A great many people can find the money to BUY a boat. Not nearly as many can find the money to KEEP a boat. So why is that?

It's because the cost of keeping a boat with a water line length of 50 feet may be reasonably expected to be EIGHT times that of keeping a boat with LWL of 25 feet. And why is that?

It's because the weight of a boat – the aggregate weight of all the thousands of parts of which it consists, an aggregate weight we call “displacement”, increases according to the increase in LWL raised to the third power. And that is because a boat is a three-dimensional body. So if you double the length, the width (“beam”) and the “depth of hull”, you increase displacement by a factor of 2 x 2 x 2 = 8, because the size, and therefore the weight, of all constituent parts will go up more or less in step with the increase in LWL.

As said, a boat meeting your desiderata would probably be about 70 feet long, and have a LWL of, say, 63 feet. Now 63 feet is about 2.5 times 25 feet. TrentePieds has a LWL of 25 feet and a displacement of 9,000 lbs. So a 70 foot boat of the same hull form (i.e. of the same “lines”), may be expected to have a displacement of about (2.5 x 2.5 x 2.5 x 9,000) lbs = 140,625 lbs. That is 64 TONS rather than 5 tons.

Now it happens that displacement is a very suitable proxy for estimating maintenance expense required over the long term. Spend more, and your funds available for other things will suffer. Spend less, and your boat will suffer! TP has a maintenance budget of Can$1,000/month, the composition of which we can come back to later. For now, just consider that the 70 foot boat you may need to meet your desiderata may be expected to cost Can$(2.5 x2.5 x2.5 x 1,000) = Can$15,625/month to keep!

Now, for the SECOND cold shower this day :-)!

However much money you spend to BUY a boat, its “fair market value”, i.e. the amount you can reasonably expect to get for it in a sale, will NEVER – I repeat NEVER – be more than you paid for it. Put another way, the money you spend on OWNING a boat is NOT an investment. It's a CONSUMPTION expense! Real Estate, such as, oh, say, a condominium apartment in Amsterdam, let alone a nice villa on the outskirts, will ALWAYS INCREASE in value and the money spent on buying such a thing IS therefore a sound investment. A boat will always FALL in value, and a boat is therefore a mere consumption good - NEVER a sound investment,

Now, without reference to a specific boat and a specific piece of real estate, I obviously cannot crunch real numbers. But just think what sort of property you could buy in the Netherlands if you have fifteen grand a month available to service a mortgage!!!

So I think you will find that, upon obtaining the appropriate visa status in the Netherlands, you will be FAR better off buying into the real estate market in any one of the major Dutch cities and, for entertainment, buying a modest, sensible boat, than you could ever hope to be by doing what you propose.

When my beloved and I got together, quite some time after retirement age, we “broke our piggybanks” and decided to split the aggregate amount two ways: A condo affording a rather pleasant shoreside life, and a modest, sensible boat to entertain us. We have had every reason to be satisfied with that decision, because the real estate's – the condo's – rate of growth in “FMV” (“reasonably anticipated selling price”) is rather greater than the rate of inflation.

There may well be things that speak in favour of your executing your plan. But do give what I have said some really serious consideration!

All the best :-)!

TP

[PocketNaomi]

TP, thank you very much for the detailed rundown. I'm not sure we'll end up going the route you suggest, but I see why you recommend it and I'm definitely going to give it some serious thought and work with the numbers more carefully!

We've been keeping our mooring-and-maintenance budget totally separate from our purchase budget; getting it from a different source and never letting it be used for purchase costs because that's a good way to make sure we don't have the money to maintain it. And we've already figured on the depreciation as a concern. But I do pretty clearly need to get some much harder numbers on whether the maintenance and mooring budget we can afford will cover the specific categories of boat that we might want -- type, size, age, etc.

If we can find a combination that fits into that budget and that still meets our needs, great. But you've convinced me not to assume it, and to make very sure that we can afford to maintain, not just A boat, but THAT boat, before we dare buy anything.

Thank you for that -- it'll be important. I won't forget it.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by TrentePieds

. For now, just consider that the 70 foot boat you may need to meet your desiderata may be expected to cost Can$(2.5 x2.5 x2.5 x 1,000) = Can$15,625/month to keep!

We must be doing it wrong
That's about what we pay per year on 60ft of timber in one of the more expensive countries on earth.

[PocketNaomi]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

We must be doing it wrong
That's about what we pay per year on 60ft of timber in one of the more expensive countries on earth.

That's... a lot more encouraging!

I'll obviously have to research what the heck we would need to pay to maintain a very specific boat when we find a boat we want, because it's pretty clearly wildly variable depending on boat, location, and who you talk to!

Is expected maintainable costs something that the person who does your survey can tell you? If not, who would I ask? (I know that one of the things I should be doing is to look at the existent maintenance records to show what it *has* cost to maintain that boat, but that is only an accurate prediction if they've been keeping up all along with what they should be doing.)