Yacht Delivery Death Traps.

[JBsurfin]

Originally Posted by SurferShane

Ever had one of those "friends" with no sailing experience who runs out and buys a yacht way too big then ask you to help them sail it down the coast like you are privileged to be on a luxury cruise? Once on board you discover the thing is a death trap and your "friend" a tyrant?

Since promising myself never to do it again after Captain Cox tried to asphyxiate me with a carbon monoxide leak from his new pride and joys outboard well, I was stupid enough to agree. This time it was SV Phar Lap from Southport to Bobin Head. Let's just call her "Knox Revenge"!

My first requests where simple.

One: put some boicide fuel treatment in the diesel tanks. NO!!! The owner argued he had the tanks removed, cleaned, and the fuel systems were spotless. Likewise, he claimed the engine had been fully serviced.

Two: fill and run out the fresh water tanks a few time to ensure we had an adequate supply of potable water. NO. I was NOT to fill the tanks. He had a water maker. I did anyway.

Before even actually getting to the yacht I had to explain that a hybrid ocean racer was too much for the owner's physical disabilities. On the yacht the list started with me explaining that his VHF radio did not work. It being an essential item. The list is endless. Despite him expecting me to sail straight to sea almost NOTHING on the boat functioned.

After the fiasco it took to get out the heads - noting I had requested at least another week to prepare her - the boat broke down a few hours down the coast streaming into a light southerly wind. Guess what? A fuel line blockage typical of a boat with a fungal infection alge bloom and debris in the tank getting swished around in open water. Towed back to Port.

Next day, I identified the problem and for the moment had the engine running properly. Owner phones me, I tell him the news and he jumps down my neck that the issue was still that the 15 kg fishing line we were trolling had stopped and was still fouling his 70 hp Yanmar.

Never dd find the water maker let alone see if it worked. Due serious safety concerns I booked a hire car home. So do you also need to know about how the island cabinet in the salon was not secured and flew across at sea nearly breaking my leg?

Sounds like you waited 30 sec to long to turn around and enjoy the day elsewhere.

[WAGM65]

Biggest beef I had buying a 40’ yacht was survey wasn’t worth the paper it was written on. Seacocks completely shot for a starters, couldn’t imagine taker her to sea. Would be very weary of any old boat without time for a good personal going over.

Replaced 10 seacocks with TrueDesign, no metal involved. Now at least that problem is solved.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by WAGM65

Biggest beef I had buying a 40’ yacht was survey wasn’t worth the paper it was written on. Seacocks completely shot for a starters, couldn’t imagine taker her to sea. Would be very weary of any old boat without time for a good personal going over.

Replaced 10 seacocks with TrueDesign, no metal involved. Now at least that problem is solved.

Totally agree on an average Surveyor. In the case of this boat, pretty much over here a loop hole the owner had to jump through after he had finalised the purchase so he could get insurance and hang at the marina with his friends in the "million dollar yacht club". While things might have been listed on the survey again, hardly anything actually worked including vital communications and navigational equipment.

Similarly, the owner bought this boat without actually seeing it till after the purchase was finalised. On a 5 minute inspection, I could have told him it was a mess that would take a 200k refit on top of the 140k price to be in decent shape. Typically the boat was a bargain for a reason; a tired insurance write-off. Still I constantly had to argue with the owner because he was still trusting the broker and survey.

One thing the new owner had done was a bottom repaint and replacement of all seacocks. No doubt the paint job to cover the structural damage from a grounding and the seacocks so at least it was somewhat sure of floating?

Regardless, the new owner is still delusional. Yacht brokers, surveyors and boat yards must make millions out of these fools, in this case still leaving them with an unseaworthy mess.

Unlike your situation, I really don't care that he might have been ripped-off. What concerns me was despite the fact he had no offshore sailing experience he attempted to coerce me into heading straight to sea with a 75 year old lady aboard based entirely on misrepresentations.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Escape Plan

Hey there! Since you’ve done deliveries for such a long time, I’m wondering if you have a checklist you use for the initial contact? I’m curious because I’m sure there are some ways to ferret out these disasters early in the process. If so, would you be willing to share that?

I was going to get all angry and state again, I am NOT a Professional Yacht
Delivery Captain, but given my life around the sea this is still a really good question. Here is where I started with this situation with some relevant commentary

First, be realistic. Buy a boat that suits your level of experience, fitness and budget. Before I bought my first real cruising yacht - a little H28 - I had already spent a lot of time on the sea professional fishing and have been learning to read the weather since I started surfing as a kid. Before purchasing the H28, I was sailing around alone on a lake in a little Hunter 18 loving it.

It was time to get my own boat. When I did it was a sensible one. The strange thing was when I bought my 28' Herreshoff, which has a reputation as one of the most seaworthy classic boat designs ever, all of these "friends" came out of the woodwork telling me how they were going to buy a 40' plus big white floating caravan production yacht. These are the sorts of idiots you want to avoid. The owner on the trip in question was one!

As soon as this guy had told me he had raced out and bought a Jeanneau Sun Fast 52 alarms bells rang. Fair enough he wanted to race it with a crew, but essentially it was entirely the wrong boat for him. These things are not designed for someone 250 kg with chronic mobility issues who had never sailed. For a start, I have a shipwright now lawyer in the boating industry friend who took a fall on the companionway stairs of a similar Jeanneau injuring his back. He was critical of the design. Likewise, I have spoken to anther owner who had had the steps structurally fail.....,,,, Then you have to shimmy around the wheel and mainsail traveler of a Sunfast to get into the helm position...,,, This is just getting around let alone aboard. I note, I also have a Law Degree and worked in Public Liability Litigation including cases of boating negligence.

Absolutely unfit for purpose if you are morbidly obese with multiple and ongoing orthopedic surgeries and issues. If this person was going to attempt to get on the water he should have considered a pilot house with a lower freeboard, necessarily having to substitute the head for a bucket and showering in the cockpit (Sounds a lot like the comforts of my simple little boat!) Personally, my opinion is the owner in question would be a liability on any sort of vessel. I note, I have had a potentially fatal incident on a bar crossing under a professional skipper who whilst only having minor obesity and health issues was kind enough to have previously informed me he could not swim. This was before it was made mandatory to wear lifejackets on these crossings.

Wow, I haven't even finished the first point and I could still write a book. Thanks again to the first responder who suggest I do just that. It is becoming apparent this could at least develop into a publishable article?

[plharm]

I am a delivery captain and always use a checklist to decide if I will do a delivery.
Professional Captain’s Delivery Checklist

Hull
Condition and appearance (note and photograph any existing damage)
Location of all thru-hulls
Location of water fills and vents
Location of fuel fills and vents
Location of waste system fittings (yes, people fill holding tanks with diesel sometimes)
Inspect steering system cables and quadrant or hydraulics and check operation lock to lock.
Check for and document hatch and portlight leaks
Check bilge for standing water. (Remember, pumping oily discharge can get YOU in trouble.)
Make sure anchor is secure and can’t get away in rough seas

Navigation Lights & Other Requirements
Check all for proper operation
Locate spare lamps
Locate switches & fuses
Locate flashlights
Locate spotlight
Locate horn for sound signals
Locate courtesy flags, quarantine flag and ship’s flag
Bell, for vessels over 39.4 feet

Safety
Check condition and number of PFD’s
Location and expiration of flare kit
Location of EPIRB
Condition and expiration of liferaft
Location of abandon ship kit
Location and state of charge for handheld VHF
Location and condition of MOB gear
Locate or bring binoculars

Vessel Paperwork
Check that state registration is properly displayed
Locate federal documentation
Locate copy of insurance policy
Locate copy of towing policy and verify you are covered on that vessel
Locate authorization letter from owner
Locate cruising permits
Locate ship’s log
Locate MARPOL visible trash placard for vessels 26 feet and over.
Boats 40 feet and over must also have a written trash disposal plan available onboard.
Check installation of radar reflector
Check for approved fire extinguishers in working order
Check for safety harnesses
Check for boarding ladder
Check operation of all VHF’s
Locate wooden plugs for thru-hull fittings
Locate first aid kit
Locate emergency underwater epoxy
Test CO, smoke, and vapor alarms
Check bilge pump operation using bilge pump float switch
Sail & Rigging
Check condition of sails
Check condition of running rigging including turnbuckles and cotter pins.
Check condition of standing rigging
Check operation of rig
Check procedure for reefing
Check for chafe in furling line
Locate spare winch handles

Engine & Electrical
Engine overall condition
Location of engine manual
Location of engine spares
Location and quantity of engine oil
Know how to prime and bleed system
Location of extra coolant
Location of tool kit
Verify operation of panel
Locate spare fuses
Check gauges for operation
Check oil and transmission fluid level
Check power steering fluid and coolant level
Check engine room hose clamps and hoses for leaks
Look for obvious chafed wires and hoses
Check stuffing box for leaking at rest and underway.
Check rudder stuffing boxes for leaks
Check all seacocks for leaks and verify they can be closed.
Check seawater intake strainer and clean if necessary
Verify operation of bilge blower for gas engines
Verify fuel tank sender is operating and accurate
Check tightness and condition of all belts
Check electrolyte level in batteries
Check operation of trim tabs, if equipped

Charts & Navigation
Locate charts for area
Locate tides & current book
Locate electronic charts
Locate plotting tools and pencils
Check sounder, GPS, and radar operation
Locate or bring spare GPS
Locate Chart # 1 for vessels over 39.4 feet
Locate or bring hand held VHF
Locate ship station radio license if needed (vessels over 65 feet, and any vessels that use INMARSAT or SSB, or any vessels that will be transmitting outside US waters)
Passport, if needed

Miscellaneous
Camera
Hat & sunglasses
Garbage bags
Waterproof matches & lighters
Adequate stove fuel
Check fresh water tank for potability
Check for legality and operation of head.
Locate key for deck fills


If all things on this checklist are not satisfied I will walk away form the delivery. As far as my delivery fee is concerned, I get 50% when you sign my contract and the rest upon completion of the delivery. My delivery contract also states that is you do not pay me at upon delivery I have the legal right to seize you boat and sell it for what you owe me. This has worked for me for the past 25 years
Without any problems.

[SurferShane]

I also note everything I am writing is based on fact. As a Lawyer I am well aware of the laws of defamation and have no intention of contravening them. In following, here are some screenshots of the conversation with the owner mentioned in my post directly above,

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by plharm

I am a delivery captain and always use a checklist to decide if I will do a delivery.
Professional Captain’s Delivery Checklist

Hull
Condition and appearance (note and photograph any existing damage)
Location of all thru-hulls
,,,

Locate or bring binoculars..........,,,,,,,,,,,



If all things on this checklist are not satisfied I will walk away form the delivery. As far as my delivery fee is concerned, I get 50% when you sign my contract and the rest upon completion of the delivery. My delivery contract also states that is you do not pay me at upon delivery I have the legal right to seize you boat and sell it for what you owe me. This has worked for me for the past 25 years
Without any problems.

Nice list. I should have Googled and had a hard copy of that one!

As you might all have gathered by now I'd rather be cruising around enjoying myself than concerned about making money on other people's nightmares. I know a "Profesional" would have done differently and better. Let them deal with these owners. For me no sum of money is worth the responsibility and stress.

Reminds me of a "funny" story back when I worked on a dinner cruise boat as a Chef. We only had over a hundred and fifty souls onboard. I wandered up onto the bridge taking a break and could hear Harbour Control frantically calling the boat in the North Channel to immediate take evasive action. I politely pointed out to our Qualified Captain that the lights directly above us where on the bow of a coal ship. Those things can't stop or turn.

Same qualified Mariner who often forgot to pump out the grey waste, which then flooded my lower stores and food preparation area with sewerage. To be honest I have learnt a lot more from rough sorts on professional fishing boats.

I guess too you might want to add to your list my second request in my initial post about potable water? The wonderful little things you learn from experience. Sure beats draining the cabin boy before he takes his last breath. Lol

(OK, this is "The Sailor's Confessional"?)

[SurferShane]

See, why I posted in "The Sailor's Confessional" is because I am happy to get off the generic checklists and explore the ethos of this situation. I never asked could the experts write everything they know about being a delivery Captain. As above, I don't care. That's their turf and they can have it!

The real point for me is much more esoteric in nature: why do these narrcistic monsters go out and buy inappropriately big boats thinking I am going to get all envious and give a crap? Then even worse, why have I been stupid enough to help them sail the death traps home when I should have seen all the red flags. Same red flags I would like to help others recognise before an offer to help sail a boat ends up a life and death experience.

No. I am not talking the universal red maritime signal flag. Please DO NOT respond telling me it's meaning. I am speaking in everyday colloquial terms. Like "how to recognise a douche bag who is likely to get you killed even before you are unfortunate enough to set foot on their yacht".

Anyways, time for another funny story. This beautiful big ocean going catermeran flying an American flag anchored way off my little yacht at Manly Cove. Those aboard ignore my friendly wave. In fitting company one of those huge super yachts that costs more than I now earn in a few years to charter for a day anchors in front of the big cat. Peas in a pod?

So later that evening a gust of wind comes up and the superyacht is tangled up with the cat to the sound of gouging fibreglass, bending stainless and yells of abuse in an American accent. The beauties took time to mate.

Later the guy from the cat motored past in his dinghy. I couldn't help commenting, "I bet you thought that was going to be me?". He didn't seem at all happy.

Not saying I haven't had something similar happen before where I was technically at fault. To my credit I was at least try to move an engineless sailboat on bad advice both from an idiot and an error in a cruising guide in face of a once in a ten year storm. I was NOT a Professional Captain on a few hundred feet superyacht with a full compliment of crew. Notwithstanding, on a relatively calm day when I didn't move an inch, the superyacht trashed that cat big time.

The moral of the story? Real Captain’s can make mistakes? A superyacht still won't make your penis any bigger? Who knows? I do know I bought another fid yesterday so I could re-splice the eye on my anchor rode. Better go do it before I end up looking all like a Superyacht Captain?

[Startracker]

Originally Posted by SurferShane

Totally agree on an average Surveyor. In the case of this boat, pretty much over here a loop hole the owner had to jump through after he had finalised the purchase so he could get insurance and hang at the marina with his friends in the "million dollar yacht club". While things might have been listed on the survey again, hardly anything actually worked including vital communications and navigational equipment.

Similarly, the owner bought this boat without actually seeing it till after the purchase was finalised. On a 5 minute inspection, I could have told him it was a mess that would take a 200k refit on top of the 140k price to be in decent shape. Typically the boat was a bargain for a reason; a tired insurance write-off. Still I constantly had to argue with the owner because he was still trusting the broker and survey.

One thing the new owner had done was a bottom repaint and replacement of all seacocks. No doubt the paint job to cover the structural damage from a grounding and the seacocks so at least it was somewhat sure of floating?

Regardless, the new owner is still delusional. Yacht brokers, surveyors and boat yards must make millions out of these fools, in this case still leaving them with an unseaworthy mess.

Unlike your situation, I really don't care that he might have been ripped-off. What concerns me was despite the fact he had no offshore sailing experience he attempted to coerce me into heading straight to sea with a 75 year old lady aboard based entirely on misrepresentations.

This is one of the no brainers to me. Case in point my own life is an object lesson in what a bad survey can cost you. I thought since I spent 1000$ and this is 15 years ago on my small sailboat(<30') I was getting good value.

I learned to my detriment that surveyors come in all stripes.
The best advice I have as someone who has now been in the marine industry a while as a result of that boat. MAKE SURE YOUR SURVEYOR IS ACCREDITED. I even bolded it for extra clarity. Seriously. Your dental hygienist needs to be accredited to clean your teeth, your lifeguard at the pool needs to be accredited to watch you swim. The idea that the person inspecting something you will trust your life to does not is frankly insane. It sets a minimum bar of quality.
It doesn't even make that much of a difference what accreditation they have whether it is SAMS or IIMS honestly. While I might get flack for that, from the end user point of view, they're both good. They generally cost not much if anything more than a non-accredited surveyor too. But you know a few things from this certification. Firstly that they have minimum standards to meet for the inspection, minimum standards in report writing as well. Secondly that they passed exams related to what they are doing so again a minimum competency is established, and lastly, all of them will be in serious dog doo-doo if they aren't carrying liability insurance.
My understanding is that both of these organizations, though SAMS more over here also do a pretty thorough dig into your background with the industry before allowing you to start your 5 year accreditation period, and furthermore if you do monkey business as a member, you will lose accreditation post-haste.

Many, many surveyors out there will put all sorts of nonsense on their reports. The good ones are generally extremely displeased about this.
Those in the repair game know which surveyor to use and when. It sounds bad but it's true. Want something surveyed properly use guy A. Want something iffy on being to code to go away? Surveyor B.
I found out in fact, that the first surveyor who burned me was so incredibly busy and high priced because he was Surveyor B. Everybody knew it. The company I worked for as a result hired him all the time, they were smart enough to keep me elsewhere after the first time I saw him again.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Startracker

This is one of the no brainers to me. Case in point my own life is an object lesson in what a bad survey can cost you. I thought since I spent 1000$ and this is 15 years ago on my small sailboat(<30') I was getting good value.

I learned to my detriment that surveyors come in all stripes.
The best advice I have as someone who has now been in the marine industry a while as a result of that boat. MAKE SURE YOUR SURVEYOR IS ACCREDITED......,,,


Those in the repair game know which surveyor to use and when. It sounds bad but it's true. Want something surveyed properly use guy A. Want something iffy on being to code to go away? Surveyor B.

I found out in fact, that the first surveyor who burned me was so incredibly busy and high priced because he was Surveyor B. Everybody knew it. The company I worked for as a result hired him all the time, they were smart enough to keep me elsewhere after the first time I saw him again.

Thanks for engaging in the discussion.

Yes, this new owner definitely got seduced by Surveyor B and the yacht broker that most likely recomended him. A vicious circle of kick-backs?

Plot twist in this case is the owner likely colluded as much as anyone in an effort to get insurance on a boat that in his own words put him in "The million dollar yacht club". His initial purchase price investment in an insurance write-off being 14% that at 140k.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens if the owner still intends to race the yacht? Eventually her real condition will be scrutinised? As we say down here, "a sugar coated turd"?

[secrabtree]

I was in the yacht delivery business between 1980 and 2002. I ALWAYS had a contract. One thing always in the contract was that they were hiring me for my expertise and knowledge. From the moment I boarded until the delivery was completed I was the captain - even if the owner was aboard. (I did say that I might ask his opinion, but MY decision was mine and I may or may not take his advice). I had confidence in me (I am very conceited). But one thing I required BEFORE beginning the delivery was a "trip survey" and inspection by ME. One delivery from San Francisco to Seattle I gave a price of $2000. The owner asked how I came up with that number. I said I estimated that it'd take 10 days. The owner countered with an offer of $200 a day for the trip. U accepted. Because of storms that held yp the delivery at a couple of places up the coast, and another day spent getting a repair done to the boat the delivery took 14 days. I not only made $800 more than I had originally requested, but I was immediately booked for the delivery from Hawaii the following year. The owner was very happy that I delivered their boat to them in top shape and dry inside. They had previous experience with delivery skippers that kept going when it was very wet and sloppy because a lump sum price or a mileage rate meant that the delivery skipper pushed the boat hard. I figured that the owner wanted his "baby" cared for. And that is what I did. He wasn't hiring me to beat up his boat. So I didn't.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by secrabtree

I was in the yacht delivery business between 1980 and 2002. I ALWAYS had a contract. One thing always in the contract was that they were hiring me for my expertise and knowledge. From the moment I boarded until the delivery was completed I was the captain . So I didn't.

Posts like this and the extensive list above of a Delivery Captain with a purported 25 years experience explains to me why this owner didn't engage a "Profesional". What he thought he had in me was a distant "friend" who would be reckless enough to sail the write-off straight out the heads as he demanded. He got me wrong on that ending in me walking off.

The last time I had contact with the guy was four years earlier in another situation where he had me do his dirty work then sat back and played out the politics. I concede I am an idiot for getting involved. While I know a hybrid ocean racer is beyond my budget, I really was keen to sail one down a familiar coast.

We can only hope the Profesional Delivery Captain he has supposedly contracted is as stringent as some of these replies. Then again, as above they might just be in the same circle as the owner, Surveyor B and Don the used boat salesman?

[secrabtree]

Re: choosing a surveyor - many decades ago I taught courses in celestial navigation and coastal piloting. Often students would ask me how to choose a surveyor. My suggestion was that they get a list of acceptable surveyors from the bank that is going to give them a loan to buy the boat (if they were getting a loan), another list of surveyors suggested by the broker/salesman, and another list from their insurance company. They should then pick a surveyor on both the bank list and the insurance company's list that is NOT on the broker's list. The surveyors on the broker's list had a vested interest in keeping the broker happy with him not stopping the sale.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by secrabtree

Re: choosing a surveyor - many decades ago I taught courses in celestial navigation and coastal piloting. Often students would ask me how to choose a surveyor. My suggestion was that they get a list of acceptable surveyors from the bank that is going to give them a loan to buy the boat (if they were getting a loan), another list of surveyors suggested by the broker/salesman, and another list from their insurance company. They should then pick a surveyor on both the bank list and the insurance company's list that is NOT on the broker's list. The surveyors on the broker's list had a vested interest in keeping the broker happy with him not stopping the sale.

Excellent plan for careful surveyor selection, Sam! And Happy NY to you, mate!

Jim

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by secrabtree

They should then pick a surveyor on both the bank list and the insurance company's list that is NOT on the broker's list. The surveyors on the broker's list had a vested interest in keeping the broker happy with him not stopping the sale.

Great advice. Thanks for contributing. Something I will hopefully remember and share.

Don the used boat salesman strikes again. He was the bane of my existence on that death trap.