When we shouldn't encourage people to "just go"

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Btw a very worthy book. I have a pdf copy somewhere. Read some of it and found it very good.

It is different when we start young - plenty of time to read the books and as much time to spend it on the water. Not quite the case for those of us who picked up the bug after they had retired.

Cheers,
b.

As a pdf I would carry one but I did keep my paper copy of Dutton's.

I did like your pointing to Bowditch as a proxy for book learning. And given the number of collisions that the US Navy is having I would say that Navy Captains are missing some years of hard knocks that all who command should have.

[Stenn]

Originally Posted by evm1024

As a pdf I would carry one but I did keep my paper copy of Dutton's.

I did like your pointing to Bowditch as a proxy for book learning. And given the number of collisions that the US Navy is having I would say that Navy Captains are missing some years of hard knocks that all who command should have.

Some hard knocks ! Those 7 poor sailors who drowned in their berths last week, now 10 more missing???.. are the ones suffering real hard knocks below the water line, while the CO's doing who knows what. But you have to wonder whether there's too much reliance on technology by some of this bridge kids, who can't see a freighter outside their bridge window. And what's the deal on deck, is nobody allowed on the forward deck, that couldn't have alerted the otherwise inattentive bridge ??? A computerized destroyer on autopilot....the Russians, Chinese, Iranians and N. Koreans are rolling on the floor. [emoji32]

[Stenn]

And what happened to AIS ?? My Lowrance VHF with AIS won't stop squacking at me for a stationary bouy I'm passing by half a mile away....and I can't disable it...they must have the "upgraded" model you can disable ?

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by evm1024

As a pdf I would carry one but I did keep my paper copy of Dutton's.

I did like your pointing to Bowditch as a proxy for book learning. And given the number of collisions that the US Navy is having I would say that Navy Captains are missing some years of hard knocks that all who command should have.

I'm afraid a couple of USN officers can kiss their careers good by.

[JPA Cate]

I'm sure the Navy hierarchy thought their training was adequate.

This is more or less what retirees tend to think of their sailing lessons. The fact is that it is way easier to teach someone how to sail the boat than to have good seamanship, which really does require some seasoning at sea.

Ann

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Stenn

.......... you recognize sounds nobody else would hear, you know potential weak points or issues you'll be watching for when spontaneous conditions arise...>>>>>>>>>>>>

So true. When we sailed up from SF to Vancouver Island last summer, my son couldn't understand why I wouldn't wear headphones during the day (we berthed at night).

I explained that I HAD to hear everything, every creak, groan and machine sound. I can tell when something is amiss by sound or feel. I believe it is critical.

[TrentePieds]

I'm with Stu :-)! "Situational awareness", to be worth anything at all, must rely on input from ALL the senses. This is as true at sea as it is in dangerous environments on land. It is as true of driving a ship as it is of driving a car. Just this afternoon I was edgy and uncomfortable because I was working a new cabinet saw. An entirely different noise from that of the old saw with a consequent reduction in "knowledge" of what the saw was doing.

I learned the lesson early; My first job outta high school was working in a factory that produced kits for model aeroplanes. The ribs for the wings were cut by making a stack of 1/16" shim stock and cutting the 5" long ribs on a band saw. - a shipsaw" that stood 8 feet tall! The noise in the shop was terrific, but yet you knew a few seconds before it happened when the band saw blade was going to break because the pitch of the noise from it changed. Some of you may have had the experience of the blade whipping out of a band saw when a break hits the blade guides. No fun, and extremely dangerous, but the subtle change in pitch gave us warning enuff so we could to get on the deck behind another machine :-)!

TP

[TrentePieds]

Quote: "I'm sure the Navy hierarchy thought their training was adequate."

It prolly is :-) What strikes me is that the John S. McCain was struck on the port side AFT. The tanker would have had the McCain her on her own Stbd side for some time prior to the collision. IOW it appears by this very limited knowledge, that MCain was the "stand on" vessel, and that she NEARLY made it across the tanker's bows. It appears on this very limited knowledge that the tanker failed to execute the standard and expected alteration to Stbd. Failure to keep adequate look-out, perhaps :-)? Pure conjecture, of course, that it was a straight-forward as that, but assuming that it was, then the destroyer appears to have stuck to the COLREGS. We can then argue about which ship had the last opportunity to avoid a collision.

Be that as it may - and no doubt we'll hear in due course that the tanker was at fault - I thot that the admiral commanding the Pacific fleet did a disservice to the USN by declaring "an operational pause" (weren't those his words?). That can only say to the world that he doesn't trust his people, and it can only knock the bottom out of the morale iof his people.

Whatever else comes of this, perhaps it should be early retirement for him!

TP

[JPA Cate]

Trente Pieds and others:

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/ar...collisions-wsj

I guess time will tell if this is scapegoating, or necessary.

Ann

[TrentePieds]

Hello, Ann :-)

Your link gives me a "something went wrong" message, and enlisting Ms.Google's help gave me no joy. Would you be kind enuff to re-transmit? I'm dying to find out why you think that someone might be scapegoated.

From what little filters through to this 'ere colony, it would appear that the conduct of the ship's company subsequent to the collision was as one would expect: Entirely appropriate. We have no knowledge of whether the skipper, who presumably has rank of Commander, was on the bridge at the time, and we have no knowledge of what manner of man was OOW, and we have no knowledge of what manner of man had the con. Presumably this will all come out in the Board of Inquiry. Presumably these hossifers will be nailed to the cross for failing to act on Rule 17. That any one of these hossifers shoulda been ignorant of Rule 17 defies belief.

Deficient look-out in a tanker, or undue reliance on on AIS, I am prepared to accept as being common enuff. But in a USN destroyer???

Anyway, I hope it never gets out that I'm standing up for the USN. I'd never be able to show my face again at my branch of the Royal Canadian Legion :-)!

TP

[TrentePieds]

I did find this : USS John S. McCain Collision: AIS Animation Shows Tanker's Track During Collision – gCaptain

My poor old eyes do not see the track of John S. McCain. Not surprising, really ;-)!

But that abrupt turn to port executed by Alnic at about second 51 in the clip seems to me to be consistent with Alnic smacking her bulb into McCain and then bouncing off. Her turn to port then seems to be intensified by the force of the collision and she then buggers off to the northward while she collects herself. That strengthens my belief that Alnic was asleep.

That, of course, does not absolve McCain of her breach of Rule 17. Hubris? Hubris in one man I can understand, but in the entire bridge crew collectively? If that were to be shown, then the USN would indeed have a "problem" - as would we all :-)!

TP

[JPA Cate]

Sorry, guys,

It was a Reuters tidbit, saying that the 3 star Admiral at Fukosuka was being relieved of duty. Name something like Lecoin. And, a brief summary of the collision.

It's not your eyes, TP, it is that it was not broadcasting AIS, common for US warships.

Ann

[TrentePieds]

I know Ann - I was just being subtle ;-) But since we all know it, we may assume that Alnic knows it. And that knowing it, she would keep a proper look-out. Then again: ABC - Assume nothing, Believe no-one, Check everything.

For example, was McCain running essentially parallel to Alnic's track, as everyone else appeared to be doing, and then suddenly, without warning, cut across Alnic's track?

But, even as I write, I find this, courtesy of CNN:

"The McCain suffered a steering failure as the warship was beginning its approach into the Strait of Malacca, causing it to collide with a commercial tanker, a Navy official told CNN. The official said it was unclear why the crew couldn't use the ship's backup steering systems to maintain control. Earlier, another US Navy official told CNN there were indications the destroyer experienced a loss of steering right before the collision, but steering had been regained afterward."

Hm... That seems downright facile. And also an admission that McCain caused the accident. But what else is the poor "navy official" to say if it's as clear-cut as that?

TP

[justwaiting]

Originally Posted by evm1024

As a pdf I would carry one but I did keep my paper copy of Dutton's.

I did like your pointing to Bowditch as a proxy for book learning. And given the number of collisions that the US Navy is having I would say that Navy Captains are missing some years of hard knocks that all who command should have.

Where i got my copy https://thenauticalalmanac.com/Bowdi...Navigator.html

[caldawson]

Hey guys,
Ok so, I read this and it scared the life out of me.
I recently decided that I wanted to give up the rat race and semi-retire at 33, I have just purchased a 45ft Beneteau, and have just started taking sailing lessons and live about courses.
My question now is with no sailing experience (mind you I can read Nav charts and know what boats look like on my radar), how am I ever going to fulfil my dream of circumnavigating the globe unless I thrown myself out there.
Look I'm not going to just decided to sail from home to panama but now I don't know how much experience is experience, especially considering I had thought I had been on the open ocean but now realise I don't think I have.