Tough Day - Thunderstorm

[svenskflicka]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

I can't understand why you had to cut lines to bring the sail down? Can you elaborate on that?

Also, did your prop-wrap happen because you cut the lines? (and that allowed them to run free in the water?)

I'm not 100% sure I "had to", but, the halyard, and outhaul jammed when I dumped them which I guess turned it almost into a spinnaker, I cut the reefing lines while I was cutting the outhaul. This left a single point of attachment to the boat (the tack) and therefore not much power.

Edit: I cut the halyard at the head of the sail at some point when the boat "tacked" and the whole mess passed through the cockpit.

No, the only lines that went overboard were the lazy jacks, they completely blew off the boat, including the blocks mounted on the mast. The sail itself snagged on the saildrive.

[MikeFergie]

Level with my boom on both sides of my mast I have swivel snap shackles for reefing the main. When I drop my main I route the halyard through one of these and tighten the halyard. This in effect holds the main down. I never take my halyard off the main. Then I zip the lazy jacks closed and finally I zip the front of the lazy jacks on which goes around the mast.

In terms of your saildrive. I have managed to snag lines many times to the point that it shuts down the engine. To date it’s just been releasing the ropes and all’s back to normal. I am led to believe from Yanmar that it will rip your engine mount before damaging the drive. Check your engine mounts and if they are fine I believe all’s okay

[jmh2002]

Originally Posted by svenskflicka

Our mainsail, which was stowed in it's stackpack literally exploded into the air causing a major broach. We were on our ear for what felt like forever until I got the main down. Had to cut off the outhaul, reefing lines and halyard.

...The sail snagged on our saildrive and we were completely without steerage or power.

My comments might not be appreciated here, so sorry for that, but don't people do basic seamanship anymore, like physically securing the mainsail when it is down? And no, a zip doesn't qualify, a zip is just a closure to look nice.

And especially after some type of thunderstorm / wind warning was received.

And how on earth did the mainsail end up underneath the boat snagging on the saildrive? This is quite ridiculous. All of this really does sound like complete craziness (I want to say incompetence, in fact - sorry again.).

Originally Posted by svenskflicka

It was a really tough afternoon, but I would like to learn as much as possible from it.

Sorry for your tough afternoon, it's never any fun when things go wrong. From the learning perspective, in my experience things going badly wrong are normally not the result of one sole mistake, but a combination of mistakes that compound the problem.

- Always secure the mainsail properly, relative to your system, and regardless of the halyard staying connected or not (several options were described for this - secure the halyard too, either separately or together)

- Especially secure sails, halyards, hatches, and any other loose items when bad weather is forecast - this is standard procedure, isn't it?

- A quick, dirty, ugly, but functional extra way to secure the mainsail is to simply take a length of line and snake it around the sail and boom making hitches as you go. Why was this, or additional sail ties around the sail and boom not done in advance?

- The outhaul and reefing lines should have been retracted (to the mast or cockpit, boat dependant) coiled, and made fast and/or stowed. Yes this is extra work, and extra work again when hoisting the main later, but you have seen the result of not doing it.

- I'm always amazed when lines end up overboard and around propellers or rudders. This should just simply never happen. It's sloppy and poor seamanship and could result in the loss of the boat and/or lives.

Also I'm not sure that your decision making process was correct. I'm not always convinced that cutting free a lot of things is the solution, in fact it often makes things worse with the lines or sails now totally uncontrolled.

This comes back to the earlier points:

- Be 300% rigorous about securing, coiling, stowing, etc, etc, to not end up in a situation where something needs to be cut free in the first place - thereby avoiding the possibility of compounding mistakes.

A long time ago on a race boat, when seeing a southerly buster approaching on the horizon, an unpopular decision was forced upon the crew the crew to drag out the storm trysail from down below, and of course from down underneath all of the race sails. It was probably 20 minutes work. To put timidly, there was a lot of grumbling...

Forcing the crew to already set it at the mast and run the lines, instead of the popular method of just keeping it 'ready' in the cockpit (still folded and bagged and far from 'ready'!) the grumbling grew louder...

And louder still when the call was made to drop the main early and hoist the trysail, causing us to lose multiple hard fought for places.

But when 60kn tore through the fleet, causing inevitable chaos, somehow nobody was grumbling anymore...

My 2 cents

[sagablu]

Originally Posted by Jaqun

Was this Yesterday (Sunday the 30th)?

I live a couple of towns over from the OP. The storm ran from the North to the South Shore of Long island. Damage on the South shore, but far more on the North Shore where the OP was sailing. A lot of Large trees down, power out in a lot of places including my house. I was out east ( windsurfing), a few storms came thru, but nothing like further west. No, I do not windsurf in 50 knots. On my ride home one road I went down had perhaps 20 trees down within perhaps 3 miles.


Sorry for the OP's trouble, hope never to have that experience.

[Pauls]

Excellent points.

[Alan j]

Sorry for your bad experience. Not sure what your set up is at the mast, but when I lower the main, I leave the halyard attached to the headboard and loop it around the winch and then cleat it down, so in effect when pulling down on the halyard in a way that would normally raise the sail, it is secured from riding up. This way if I need to raise it again quickly it is still available. Once in port and the sail ties are on I then take the halyard off and secure it away from the mast so it doesn’t slap. I don’t have experience with stackpacks, but based on your experience, I might further secure the main with sail ties. I would also add a zipper just to keep the rain out.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Regarding the main uphaul, generally I snag it under a cleat on the mast then tension it so it cant come loose,.

We always did the exact same thing.

[wingssail]

I am sure we would have approached this oncoming thunderstorm differently, but maybe without better outcome given the ultimate strength of the gusts.

In our case we would stow the jib mostly or completely and put a deep reef in the main, keeping a limited amount of sail up but sheeted flat, giving us steerage and the ability to control the boat better than under power.

This can be done quickly.

In the strong conditions, when you are completely overpowered and sailing is very difficult, one can "heave to" and withstand almost any wind.

I do not advocate taking the sails down when faced with heavy weather.

PS, in Sydney Hobart in 2001 a large waterspout was seen coming towards the fleet. Nicorette, a 70' racing boat noticed that the waterspout was coming directly towards them. They dropped sails and went below. The wind from the waterspout pulled the mainsail back up the mast then removed it for them. After the waterspout passed they bent on another main and continued racing. None of the other boats were hit but we all saw it. Scary.

[JPA Cate]

Hi, there, svensflicka,

Glad you came through okay. It sounds like a very harrowing experience. They can happen in a thunderstorm. We had a t/s adventure once that was scary, too.

We had our mainsail climb up the mast once like that, came as a total surprise to me. Fortunately, it was just the top 6 feet or so, enough to catch the wind, but the sail ties held the rest. Since then, we have a downhaul line that we put on, from the top of the sail to the 3rd reef, light line tensioned with some bungee cord. Now, when we drop that line, we secure it to a cleat on the boom, and put the tail of the line in a small rope bag, with drains, that contains the tails of the lazy jack lines also, which is attached to the mast. If the head of that sail had been held down, the wind couldn't get under it and blow it up. It had nothing to do with the halyard, except that the halyard could be used to secure it, by going under the reefing horn, over the sail, under the other reefing horn, and to the mast cleat. If the head is secured, the zip will usually hold; however, if the thread is sun-rotted, the new zip should be put in using Tenara thread (it is ptfe), and does not significantly sun rot. It is going to be a pain to re-reave that line, but not impossible.

You would have felt the boat bump the bottom, [it's the sort of feeling so out of place on a boat, I think you would have noticed it, even though distracted] if it had, so I expect no hull damage.

Possible damage to saildrive, but if no leaks, try it, tied up in the berth, both in forward and reverse, and also check for overheating, so run it, pulling/pushing against the dock lines for a while, and keep an eye on the water temp and oil pressure. It's probably okay.

Part of what I guess happened is that while you were frightened, you did not stop to think things through, possibly because it all seemed to happen so fast. I think you already understand about securing the mainsail, quite possibly if you had done that when you dropped it, the whole event would have been different. For one, you probably wouldn't have stayed over on your ear for so long.

However, if you find yourself with lines in the water, put the engine in neutral right then, and kill the motor, as fast as possible consistent with safety. Retrieve and secure lines as fast as possible. Re-start motor. A line wrapped around the prop will need to be cut off...carry fins, mask, and snorkel. Some of us keep a knife in a sheath on the pedestal for the steering.

Finally, I understand the desire to try and race for home, but it is often the wrong thing to do. A tiny bit of headsail will be enough to control where she goes (though you'll be radar blind in pouring rain). I mean just enough for control, not as much as a storm jib, just a tiny "scrap" of headsail. Usually, these events are moving fairly rapidly, don't have time to churn up big seas, put the wind aft of the beam, and run somewhere there is room. Or, if it's shallow, like you're being blown down onto something hard, anchor as soon as you can.

You've had a huge learning experience, it may take a while to get it internalized, but one day, you may find yourself telling the story in the yacht club bar, and somebody will treat you to a re-fill of your beverage.

Ann

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by SailRedemption

I don't think removing the main halyard would have prevented this. The head of your main still would have blown up the track. What you need is a length of line with a snap shackle. The snap shackle attaches to your main halyard or headboard and then it gets tied down to a cleat on the mast or something on deck. This will stop your head from shooting up the track. To prevent the leech you need to get some velcro, a sail tie, or a drawstring to close the aft end of your stack pack to prevent wind from blowing into the folds of your sail.

Remove main halyard from sail and secure to base of a lifeline stanchion anytime sail is down. This is extremely basic requirement for safely handling mainsails. Wind force on halyard caused lots of violent shaking, jerking motion with upward pressure on stackpack zipper, breaking it open. It's a real weak point. No other way it would have opened. Besides, why do you leave halyard where it can slap against the mast in any wind?

[redneckrob]

Thanks to the OP for sharing this. It is a very eye opening experience for those of us that assumed a zipper stack pack is secure, and I'll raise my hand to being one of those fools before reading your post. It takes a degree of humility most of us don't have to share a story like this knowing the personal criticism it will inevitably attract, so thanks for putting yourself out there!

[Chotu]

Always bring your halyard outboard and attach when not in use and I guess sail ties for stack packs as well. Takes a hell of a storm to test this out, but that was definitely a hell of a storm. I went through it too a harbor West of you.

Lots of people without power, trees down, etc.

This wasn't a joke. It was extremely powerful. No one should diminish his experience. It was almost as bad as it gets for straight line winds.

[svenskflicka]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Thanks to the OP for sharing this. It is a very eye opening experience for those of us that assumed a zipper stack pack is secure, and I'll raise my hand to being one of those fools before reading your post. It takes a degree of humility most of us don't have to share a story like this knowing the personal criticism it will inevitably attract, so thanks for putting yourself out there!

Thanks Rob, yea I expected some hash advise, though I suppose being called incompetent by a couple of the people here seemed a bit unnecessary being that they weren't there. Once the main blew up the mast (recommendations for securing the main are well taken, thank you for those that contributed), there was no way I was going to be able to crank 48 feet of main (that is all messed up in the lazy jacks and partially in the water) into sailing position, and even if I did, two reefs in the main and 52kts winds, I don't know about that. There is maybe, 4,500 FEET of good water East / West in the width and maybe 3000 feet South, with the wind coming straight down just West of North. I was mid-bay, so at 7 knots best case scenario, sailing blind, I'd have maybe 120 seconds of running room, all while trying to get the situation under control. In fact a late friend, and seasoned offshore racer dropped the sails and motored head to wind when I was on his boat in this exact location when a thunderstorm blew over.

In hindsight, aside from the obvious of securing the main properly I am wondering, one poster mentioned using a tiny scrap of jib to sail, isn't there a risk of the jib completely unfurling in these situations though?.

Heaving to definitely crossed my mind as well, but that would have put me on a course directly at the shoal near the lighthouse.

Also I shudder to think what the situation would have been if the main blew up the mast while I was anchored in a crowded anchorage, so all mistakes being the same, I'm glad I got away from all of the other boats.

[JC Reefer]

I was not there so I respect your individual experience but from what I read I think cutting the lines was the biggest mistake.

You mentioned that you decided to cut after the vessel tacked through, and the entire mess passed through the cockpit.

I mean, cutting things suddenly puts debris in the water. And for some time left you with a totally uncontrollable headsail.

I’d say to pull the main halyard down a bit and attach it a reefing hook or something.

Just seems like it got out Of control I’d say. I would in general advise not cutting lines. Glad all are ok.

Good luck.

[maine50]

Also on Long Island Sound on Ct side (Branford) a microburst went thru and caused damage at a marina where a Melges 32 blew off a trailer. Also damage to the metal work building which reportedly had holes made in siding (from flying objects).