Spectacular Med Mooring Screwup

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Point of information:

MY bowthruster can only be used for short bursts. .

There...fixed it for you.

Not that I think I would ever need to, but I tested mine continuously at the berth and while the enclosure got pretty warm from the hot motor, it never shut down and the fuse was OK.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Bowthrusters create laziness in mind and behaviour. I'm glad I never got one fitted to my boat as I probably would get myself in a heap of trouble when it fails.

If I were to get a bigger boat I would get one now that I have done my apprenticeship without one

Which is exactly what we did.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by weavis

This what I do. 28 knots cross wind.

Motor only, bow thruster.
If it goes wrong.... everything is toast. Dinghy on one side with outboard running. bow thruster keeping it centred... fenders on back. jump off, tie off two lines.. pick up bow line from water or edge forward drop anchor and reverse again. Works best if you use someone elses boat...

It doesn't happen to me often, but after watching your video I've suddenly come down with a bad case of spade rudder envy!

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Bowthrusters create laziness in mind and behaviour. I'm glad I never got one fitted to my boat as I probably would get myself in a heap of trouble when it fails.

If I were to get a bigger boat I would get one now that I have done my apprenticeship without one

They can do, but not necessarily. Really only with pretty unskilled people, I would say.

For a skillful sailor, a bowthruster is one more tool, and a very powerful one. Just not capable of magic, or of solving all harbor maneuver problems, not by a long shot. Bowthrusters are very powerful tools, but they also require considerable skill to use well.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

There...fixed it for you.

Not that I think I would ever need to, but I tested mine continuously at the berth and while the enclosure got pretty warm from the hot motor, it never shut down and the fuse was OK.

The previous owner of my boat got his so warm that it melted the assymetrical spinnaker and sock that was stored next to it under the V-berth. I haven't experienced a thermal shut off but always try to use mine in short bursts.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

They can do, but not necessarily. Really only with pretty unskilled people, I would say.

For a skillful sailor, a bowthruster is one more tool, and a very powerful one. Just not capable of magic, or of solving all harbor maneuver problems, not by a long shot. Bowthrusters are very powerful tools, but they also require considerable skill to use well.

The unskilled who go straight to a BT are the ones I mean. They'll be screwed if it dies.

First master the skill without a BT and then with.

If you want to impress in the med, get a stern thruster. I watched a big ketch going bow first towards the dock, stop, drop the anchor, spun 180 degrees and backed into the dock. At first I thought WTF but then I was quietly jealous

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

I haven't tried this maneuver yet, but it works in my mind.

Back up to the sea wall and make fast a line to the windward quarter.

Power ahead while easing the line out to the point where you can grab the bouy from the bow.

Set the autopilot to maintain a compass heading that keeps the bouy in reach.

Stroll forward and tie off to the bouy.

Then at your leisure adjust the lines and add a second stern line.

Now I'll just need to find a place in the Houston are to try this.

This is bound to end badly.

First, if you can singlehandedly back into the sea wall with enough to control to come to within arms reach of a particular cleat on that sea wall, why not just grab the buoy on the way in and save the trouble of all the steps that follow?

But even if you don't put a line on the buoy first, I can't imagine how I could singlehandedly back in with a 20 knot crosswind, stop the boat within arms reach of the dock and make fast a line to it that was also connected to the windward quarter of my boat without either smashing against the dock or falling into the water leaving my boat to fend for istself!
Powering out to a buoy and picking it up singlehanded with a 20 knot crosswind, while simultaneously paying out that line you somehow attached to the dock sounds OK when written I suppose, but even without the added distraction of the stern line, it's pretty tough to singlehandedly grab a mooring with a 20 knot crosswind on your first attempt and that's why everyone approaches mooring balls from downwind whenever possible. Also, attempting to use an autopilot for the small, precise steering corrections needed to pick up a mooring buoy (especially with a 20 knot crosswind) isn't going to work. You'll need a fairly skilled helmsman for that task considering you're only going to have one fleeting crack at grabbing that mooring. In your scenario, I can pretty well guarantee there will be NO "strolling" involved and if you miss your first attempt at grabbing that mooring ball, what comes next? You are secured to the dock behind you so can't circle around for another try and since you are stopped, you have no steerage way and the wind is blowing your bow to leeward pretty fast. As has been discussed, even if you have a bow thruster, you can't use it to move your bow to windward against a 20 knot wind and if you don't have a bow thruster your only option I can see is to drop your stern line and start over from scratch and retrieve that long stern line after you finally make it in to the dock.

There are several better options available.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

This is bound to end badly.

First, if you can singlehandedly back into the sea wall with enough to control to come to within arms reach of a particular cleat on that sea wall, why not just grab the buoy on the way in and save the trouble of all the steps that follow?

But even if you don't put a line on the buoy first, I can't imagine how I could singlehandedly back in with a 20 knot crosswind, stop the boat within arms reach of the dock and make fast a line to it that was also connected to the windward quarter of my boat without either smashing against the dock or falling into the water leaving my boat to fend for istself!
Powering out to a buoy and picking it up singlehanded with a 20 knot crosswind, while simultaneously paying out that line you somehow attached to the dock sounds OK when written I suppose, but even without the added distraction of the stern line, it's pretty tough to singlehandedly grab a mooring with a 20 knot crosswind on your first attempt and that's why everyone approaches mooring balls from downwind whenever possible. Also, attempting to use an autopilot for the small, precise steering corrections needed to pick up a mooring buoy (especially with a 20 knot crosswind) isn't going to work. You'll need a fairly skilled helmsman for that task considering you're only going to have one fleeting crack at grabbing that mooring. In your scenario, I can pretty well guarantee there will be NO "strolling" involved and if you miss your first attempt at grabbing that mooring ball, what comes next? You are secured to the dock behind you so can't circle around for another try and since you are stopped, you have no steerage way and the wind is blowing your bow to leeward pretty fast. As has been discussed, even if you have a bow thruster, you can't use it to move your bow to windward against a 20 knot wind and if you don't have a bow thruster your only option I can see is to drop your stern line and start over from scratch and retrieve that long stern line after you finally make it in to the dock.

There are several better options available.

Yes. The pilot won't handle this. As you head off the quay, you will be getting blown down by the side wind, and the pilot will do nothing but maintain the bow pointed in the same direction, and even that only to the extent you have steerage.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

The bowthruster is really just an aid for steering, you really shouldn't ever get yourself in a situation where you can't get out of it, by not using one. Basically, always pretend you don't have one, then use it to make life easier.

I would go further and point out that bowthrusters are simply not powerful enough (even ignoring overheat shutdowns) to help when conditions are really sporty. By using one consistently the operator gives up the opportunity to practice putting the boat where s/he wants it in more benign conditions. The experience in mild to moderate conditions pays dividends when the wind is up.

[Pelagic]

It sounds to me from the comments that a lot of the bow thrusters are not very well installed if they have an overheating problem and/or the wiring is a bit light.
I just don't have that problem

The tunnel thruster motor is installed right behind the chain locker in a large space open to the bilge so lots of ventilation.
It is actually part of a V-shower where the motor is boxed in and doubles as a shower seat, with waterproof access lid to the motor.

Service is easy which usually involves checking the tightness of the heavy lugs on the contractors. Measuring the voltage and DC Amp loads at start and prolonged use.

One other point is that many tunnel thrusters come with protective grids or screens for the tunnels.

To me, this is a bad idea as debris and wood can find its way in, but very hard to get out. Also makes it difficult to clean
First thing I did when I bought Stargazer, was to cut away the grids

[Kenomac]

I think you may have a different sort of bow thruster. Mine is always max power on giving an enormous blast of thrust when initiated. there is no medium setting to gently propel the bow sideways.

Your thruster looks more like it has an outboard type prop.

When mine comes on with a turbo type blast of water, I can see why it will overheat if used continuously.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I would go further and point out that bowthrusters are simply not powerful enough (even ignoring overheat shutdowns) to help when conditions are really sporty. By using one consistently the operator gives up the opportunity to practice putting the boat where s/he wants it in more benign conditions. The experience in mild to moderate conditions pays dividends when the wind is up.

Oh, they are mostly (depending on the installation) plenty powerful enough -- if you use them right. Even in "sporty" conditions.

They are not for bulk propulsion of the vessel. They are for giving a kick to the bow, or for steering the bow (you don't have a rudder up there!). I almost never use mine for more than 5 seconds at a time and have never once had a thermal shutdown. Mine is a 10 horsepower Sleipner Sidepower with counter-rotating propellers in a tunnel, installed as part of the original build.

If you can't handle the boat without a bowthruster, then you'll never figure out how to use a bowthruster correctly. Bowthrusters are not pushbutton shortcuts to harbor maneuvers.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hoppy

. . .

If you want to impress in the med, get a stern thruster. I watched a big ketch going bow first towards the dock, stop, drop the anchor, spun 180 degrees and backed into the dock. At first I thought WTF but then I was quietly jealous

A stern thruster is not all that necessary on a sailboat with shaft drive (so that you get prop wash on the rudder). You've got a rudder back there, after all, unlike at the bow.

That's because you can kick the stern easily with rudder and power. When I first started using a bow thruster -- only 8 years ago as my present boat is the first I've ever had with one -- I realized in a flash that bowthrusters are really really cool when I figured out how to move the boat sideways with counter rudder, forward power, and thruster.

That being said -- I wouldn't kick a stern thruster out of bed for eating crackers. ANYTHING which adds to control in close quarters is a very, very good thing. It just gives you that much more control -- by allowing you to kick the stern independent of rudder or power settings.


And with respect to the ketch you saw -- are you quite sure he was using a stern thruster?? What you describe is a classic sailing ship maneuver -- forgot what it's called -- I've seen it done without any thrusters and even no engine power -- hugely impressive ship handling -- one of the most impressive things I've ever seen.

[Pelagic]

Like DH ...I normally just do touches with the bow thruster for small corrections when backing up slowly into a slip.

The most when spinning stationary when no room, but I do test continuous operation to confirm reliability

[Kenomac]

Dockhead kinda beat me to this post. Here's where a bow thruster comes in very handy. When trying to get off a dock, simply turn the wheel all the way as if you're steering full lock towards the dock. Then 2-4 quick bursts of full forward throttle (totally counter intuitive) and 2-4 short bursts with the bow thruster, and you'll find yourself 10-15ft off the dock and parallel to it. Engage forward or reverse, then be on your way.

This method can also be used to parallel park in tight quarters.