Some Numbers - Is Sailing Worth it?

[Kd9truck]

Hey Chotu, check your email, I sent you some furler foil pictures.

[carlosproa]

I will say, look at your health and age, extrapolate how many years you can sail confidently, and compare to how much longer you need to get her in basic sailing condition. Then look at the alternative.

Riggs have been made of everything under the sun, they do not have to be perfect, just safe. I do not see why a shorter furling is such a deal killer. It is a compromise but that is it.

[letsgetsailing3]

If you don't question your very existence on a boat project, then it wasn't really much of a project.

Yours is a real project.

You've come this far, you're definitely going to put the rig on her.

Keep a stiff upper lip.

[Mike OReilly]

When I was first getting into this life I actually mused about the idea of building my own boat. I'm very much a budget cruiser, so I will never be able to afford the "perfect" boat. I began encountering a number of people who were doing just this.

My sailing mentor at the time told me this: "There are people who like to go sailing, and there are people who like to build boats. The two groups overlap -- but not completely."

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

When I was first getting into this life I actually mused about the idea of building my own boat. I'm very much a budget cruiser, so I will never be able to afford the "perfect" boat. I began encountering a number of people who were doing just this.

My sailing mentor at the time told me this: "There are people who like to go sailing, and there are people who like to build boats. The two groups overlap -- but not completely."

Be glad you didn’t. like me, you might still be building it. Ha ha ha

but definitely there are people who like to build things and people who like to sail. I am strongly in the latter category.

and just a random comment for the thread in general, not to you specifically Mike:

this is quite an experience working with somebody who is this brilliant about rigging and things.

here and there I feel like I have a good idea it just gets shot down immediately and I feel really stupid. Lol.

I am beyond thankful that I am working with the guy I am working with. He knows exactly how everything needs to be done. That’s why you don’t see me asking any questions on the forum about rigging right now.

He’s even doing a pretty good job of trying to keep things low cost. I’m pretty impressed with the way he’s doing that especially given his background and the types of people he usually works for. He’s more used to the money is no object crowd. So I have to really hand it to him that he is able to bring things down to my level. And to do that gracefully as well. He’s doing a pretty damn good job I think.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

I will say, look at your health and age, extrapolate how many years you can sail confidently, and compare to how much longer you need to get her in basic sailing condition. Then look at the alternative.

Riggs have been made of everything under the sun, they do not have to be perfect, just safe. I do not see why a shorter furling is such a deal killer. It is a compromise but that is it.

That’s a pretty good point. I was actually just doing that believe it or not. I was thinking about all this money getting spent on the rigging. And then I was starting to think about what rent costs for people. When you spread it out, it’s not looking too bad.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

If you don't question your very existence on a boat project, then it wasn't really much of a project.

Yours is a real project.

You've come this far, you're definitely going to put the rig on her.

Keep a stiff upper lip.

Or as one wise person once said: "letsgetsailing"

Ha ha ha.

A good user name. Applies perfectly to this situation.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Be glad you didn’t. like me, you might still be building it. Ha ha ha

but definitely there are people who like to build things and people who like to sail. I am strongly in the latter category.

I get that Chotu. Certainly no offence meant by my little quip. But it does seem to be a truism that some people just like to build, or even just prepare, their boats, and are not really into going anywhere. They never seem to finish, and always have a reason to stay at the dock. It's that "one last improvement..." syndrome.

In fact, I've found myself getting stuck like that more than once. Sometimes I've had to push myself off the dock, and tell myself, "ENOUGH!"

Originally Posted by Chotu

and just a random comment for the thread in general, not to you specifically Mike:... here and there I feel like I have a good idea it just gets shot down immediately and I feel really stupid. Lol.

Yeah, sadly this place has this tendency. You're not the only one to feel the CF sting. I find there's a strong conservative streak in the CF crowd -- and I don't mean this in the political sense. But there's enough people of good will and great experience here to make it all worthwhile. So keep on keepin' on.

[gsuescum]

Stop refitting and go with the boat you have. Stop tearing things off that already work. Just go.

I once did the “buy cheap and refit” thing and it cost me more than a new boat along with a huge amount of wasted time I could have been cruising. I didn’t want to be on that boat after all the work. Ended up selling it at a loss and buying a newer one with the things I wanted already on it (except I did put in an 18” dishwasher).

Your situation reminds me of a guy I know who’s been in our local shipyard for at least 18 months now. He bought a super super sexy ~60 ft sailing cat. It mostly need cosmetic work on the inside and new running rigging. He decided to make it “perfect” and probably spent $600k on “better” engines, sails , electronics, enclosures, standing rigging. (new sails alone were $200k and his old sails were fine) He’s still in the on the hard with this very very sexy boat that broke his heart, emptied his bank account and that he’ll probably have to sell ata huge loss.

Cut your loses and go!

DONT relocate the galley
Get a splice for the furler foil or use the smaller jib that you got with the boat.
Use the double main sheet setup (I’ve used them and I think they are good for holding the sail shape and in case of accidental jibes)
Get a second hand trampoline and put it in.
Reinstall the floors you originally had

You have another 5-6 months before the hurricanes start up again. Get going and good luck! 😎👍

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Have tested twin mainsheet systems, even on the same boat, and have a few observations. Yes, they work well, but different.

• Plan where the windward sheet will be when the boom is eased well off (going deep). It's OK on the Gunboat, but it can end up cutting through the cockpit. You don't want these highly loaded lines where they can catch people and they can be in the way.
• Mark the sheets with a few settings, particularly if the main is hard to see from the winches. Windward. Close reaching. Saves futzing around.
• You will need two dedicated winches IMO and two tackles (though slightly lower purchase), neutralizing some of the cost savings. Both are sheets, and no multihull has any business putting a main sheet in a clutch IMO. It is also a pain to adjust if you've got to fool around with clutches. Of course, a traveler will need some system of jammers and winches as well, but the traveler can be in a clutch.
• A plus, of course, is that there is no traveler to adjust, which is difficult on big multies.

For example, to go from a deep reach to windward, you bring the leeward sheet to the "windward" mark and then grind the windward sheet to the "windward mark." To ease onto a reach you ease the windward sheet until the load is on the leeward sheet, and then ease the leeward sheet as needed. I jibed by centering the boom first.


Depowering in gusts is different and less sensitive. But you don't play the sheet in a big boat. It does have to be ready to let go.



I liked it for cruising, but I didn't really like it for driving hard in gusty conditions. In your situation I would be struggling mightily with the decision. Not sure at all, and it would depend on the details of the design.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by gsuescum

Stop refitting and go with the boat you have. Stop tearing things off that already work. Just go.

I once did the “buy cheap and refit” thing and it cost me more than a new boat along with a huge amount of wasted time I could have been cruising. I didn’t want to be on that boat after all the work. Ended up selling it at a loss and buying a newer one with the things I wanted already on it (except I did put in an 18” dishwasher).

Your situation reminds me of a guy I know who’s been in our local shipyard for at least 18 months now. He bought a super super sexy ~60 ft sailing cat. It mostly need cosmetic work on the inside and new running rigging. He decided to make it “perfect” and probably spent $600k on “better” engines, sails , electronics, enclosures, standing rigging. (new sails alone were $200k and his old sails were fine) He’s still in the on the hard with this very very sexy boat that broke his heart, emptied his bank account and that he’ll probably have to sell ata huge loss.

Cut your loses and go!

DONT relocate the galley
Get a splice for the furler foil or use the smaller jib that you got with the boat.
Use the double main sheet setup (I’ve used them and I think they are good for holding the sail shape and in case of accidental jibes)
Get a second hand trampoline and put it in.
Reinstall the floors you originally had

You have another 5-6 months before the hurricanes start up again. Get going and good luck! 😎👍

I am with you on this.

that’s what I’m trying to do.

certain little things I will have to be working on. Tankage. Plumbing. Electrical. Relocating the galley is absolutely the last thing on my list. Which I might do at the end.

But the first thing is getting it sailing.

I don’t know what you mean by the floors I had before. I have never installed any yet. I definitely need to get some floors and some steps to go down into the hulls down at some point.

using ladders and just odds and ends for steps is not so safe.

I also need some more permanent salon doors.

I am debating even putting any trampolines. I have no life lines and I don’t even think I’m going to have trampolines. At least not anytime in the near future. There doesn’t seem to be that much of a call or reason to have them. So I am with you here. At least work I can do is the work I’m trying to do.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I get that Chotu. Certainly no offence meant by my little quip. But it does seem to be a truism that some people just like to build, or even just prepare, their boats, and are not really into going anywhere. They never seem to finish, and always have a reason to stay at the dock. It's that "one last improvement..." syndrome.

In fact, I've found myself getting stuck like that more than once. Sometimes I've had to push myself off the dock, and tell myself, "ENOUGH!"



Yeah, sadly this place has this tendency. You're not the only one to feel the CF sting. I find there's a strong conservative streak in the CF crowd -- and I don't mean this in the political sense. But there's enough people of good will and great experience here to make it all worthwhile. So keep on keepin' on.

Whoops. Little misunderstanding. I meant working with this absolute genius on the rigging. That’s when I feel stupid. I think I have some great idea and it’s immediately shot down and shot down very well. So I have to just almost chuckle. Because I have no hope of coming up with any ideas that this guy doesn’t already have. He already has the answer for everything. There’s nothing I can come up with that will be helpful to him at all. So I’m starting to just take on the role of apprentice. As a matter of fact he is putting me to work on my own roller for a lawyer. Reconditioning it and trying to merge it with the other one that’s coming from a new friend in Long Island. That’s going to be on my plate. It’s busywork. Non-epoxy work.

I am OK with the lively debate on the forum. I like it. It’s good. I like to take a lot of different viewpoints and different approaches and distill them down into a solution. So I am very happy to hear all the different viewpoints and ideas. That’s what makes it fun here in my opinion. No complaints. Some of the personal attacks have been rough for some reason especially around the holidays. When the cat's away the mice will play I think was going on with that. But that’s long over.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I am debating even putting any trampolines. I have no life lines and I don’t even think I’m going to have trampolines. At least not anytime in the near future. There doesn’t seem to be that much of a call or reason to have them. So I am with you here. At least work I can do is the work I’m trying to do.

Trampolines and lifelines on your boat strike me as "use the boat for a bit and decide what might be useful to you if you added it". In other words, figure out where you're moving around the boat most often, what areas are a challenge or a bit risky, etc.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Have tested twin mainsheet systems, even on the same boat, and have a few observations. Yes, they work well, but different.

• Plan where the windward sheet will be when the boom is eased well off (going deep). It's OK on the Gunboat, but it can end up cutting through the cockpit. You don't want these highly loaded lines where they can catch people and they can be in the way.
• Mark the sheets with a few settings, particularly if the main is hard to see from the winches. Windward. Close reaching. Saves futzing around.
• You will need two dedicated winches IMO and two tackles (though slightly lower purchase), neutralizing some of the cost savings. Both are sheets, and no multihull has any business putting a main sheet in a clutch IMO. It is also a pain to adjust if you've got to fool around with clutches. Of course, a traveler will need some system of jammers and winches as well, but the traveler can be in a clutch.
• A plus, of course, is that there is no traveler to adjust, which is difficult on big multies.

For example, to go from a deep reach to windward, you bring the leeward sheet to the "windward" mark and then grind the windward sheet to the "windward mark." To ease onto a reach you ease the windward sheet until the load is on the leeward sheet, and then ease the leeward sheet as needed. I jibed by centering the boom first.


Depowering in gusts is different and less sensitive. But you don't play the sheet in a big boat. It does have to be ready to let go.



I liked it for cruising, but I didn't really like it for driving hard in gusty conditions. In your situation I would be struggling mightily with the decision. Not sure at all, and it would depend on the details of the design.

Thanks for the post. And all of the strategy behind it.

I’m definitely struggling to keep up with you guys and my Rigger. You guys are way way ahead of me in actual rigging knowledge.

i’ll try to think through these eventualities. I am pretty sure my Rigger is thinking through these already. Because he is so on top of every little eventuality. He is seeing like 10 moves into the future on everything we’re doing. So hopefully the same with this.

and yes. When sailing I agree with you. I always sheet all the way in as tight as possible gybing. The only shock should really be when the sail flips from one position to the other. But not the boom.

my boom is about as long as the one you see there. In the picture. My set up is nearly identical. Except they have a problem with my dacits that come off of the roof. They will block this and require debits to be moved.

The primary reasons for this sheeting system are the following:

1) my roof does not appear strong enough to take the racking loads of the main sheet. It would require considerable glass work and modification

2) This sheeting system is more than $5000 less than a traveler.

Because of those two things, it seems like this is the right way to go even if I do have some drawbacks to live with.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Trampolines and lifelines on your boat strike me as "use the boat for a bit and decide what might be useful to you if you added it". In other words, figure out where you're moving around the boat most often, what areas are a challenge or a bit risky, etc.

Yeah that’s how I see it also. I’m just going to add things as I need them. As I go.

basically, you would think you need lifelines and trampolines.

however, you don’t need to leave the salon interior of the boat to sail it.

and in emergency situations, you can clip on and go forward to do something.

when it comes to going to the bow, the only reason I have to do that if the furler is working properly, will be to anchor. So you are already in a fairly protected area. I have a cat walk going forward. I just don’t have the trampolines around each side of it. So you can go forward on the bows, forward on the cat walk, and across the beam if you really want to.

For now given my age and my mobility, it’s not too hard to get around the boat without it being dangerous.