Sneaking the Holding Tank Overboard

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Mariness

To take the logical path to an extreme: Ted Bundy killed a a bunch of people (30 is a generally accepted estimate). By your reasoning, does that mean, as long as you keep the total below an even dozen, you're allowed to kill anyone you want?

In the Army I do beleive they quite encourage it In the private sector (recreational / business) being "allowed" is not really the deciding factor.

Ted Bundy? I heard he was big on recycling. albeit not quite as keen as Jeffrey Dahmer

Basically: I take responsibility for my waste and I only expect you to take responsibility for yours. Dumping it in the water is not taking appropriate responsibility, it's leaving it for everyone else (not to mention the environment) to suffer with.

No. you expect me to follow your half baked political beliefs. Wrapped up in hair care science. and coated in religous style warnings of impending doom........with the option of being "saved", if only........... (insert own etc etc ).........and then are surprised / offended / outraged that other's know what crap smells like when they see it - and have no desire to then swallow it

I guess it's because not everyone is a gullible idiot. (no offence meant )

[donradcliffe]

The Anapolis pumpout boat was not operating a couple of weeks ago when I was there--they said that the pump was breaking down so frequently they weren't sure they were going to fix it again.

New York harbor water has its own special smell--just like the one you get at the sewage treatment plant. I try not to get splashed on as I am going through.

[osirissail]

The two best answers so far are the "when it makes sense to not discharge" which is really a courtesy thing to other boaters and folks in dinghies and those wanting an early morning swim around their boat. It is just rude to be discharging a brown cloud in those circumstances.
- - The other is in enclosed or stagnant water bays and coves where tidal flushing is not adequate to disperse the effluent.
- - In the Caribbean from the D.R. to Grenada, pump outs exist at the new marinas and super marinas but not elsewhere. However there pumped out waste joins the main island systems that are pumped to very long underwater pipes that discharge the raw sewerage into the ocean waters out where the underwater shelf drops into the abyss. In the less developed islands locals use individual septic tanks which are emptied by service trucks that then proceed to the island's main discharge pipe leading out to the ocean and discharge the material there. It works well so long as the population stays low density.
- - As an aside - chemicals and other dissolved organics that cannot be killed by aeration and biocides are passed directly into the rivers and eventually the oceans from every country in the world. Just think where those billions of gallons of high octane coffee (caffeine) are going from all the Starbucks, cafes, etc. - straight into the oceans. There has to be a lot of nervous, sleepless fish, whales and dolphins out there these days. . .

[Vasco]

Ah Pumpouts! In Georgetown in the Bahamas this year a pumpout boat started business. I think it was part of a UN grant or something. It supposedly takes the effluent out of the harbour and up the coast to the Emerald Bay resort which has its own sewage plant. Those of you that have been to GT know that the pass out to the sound (you have to go through it to get to Emerald Bay) is often impassable to small boats. In these circumstances the authorities say that the effluent will be moved by tanker truck. The service has been spotty in the first year of operation. It will be interesting to see how it's going this winter.

[off-the-grid]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

New York harbor water has its own special smell--just like the one you get at the sewage treatment plant. I try not to get splashed on as I am going through.

I lived in Weehawken this past winter. That river at certain times smells worse than anything in my holding tank. If anything, I think dumping overboard may actually make the Hudson cleaner.

[kb79]

a lot of people seem to think "other people do it, so why shouldn't i?" or "there are bigger sources of pollutants, so i'll just pollute too"

that's a pretty disappointing attitude, in my opinion.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The Anapolis pumpout boat was not operating a couple of weeks ago when I was there--they said that the pump was breaking down so frequently they weren't sure they were going to fix it again.

The Annapolis pump-out boat is running today. I think you were either misinformed or misunderstood. Perhaps "they weren't sure they were going to fix it again" meant a new pump? I didn't ask that of Flip. I can say for sure, since I generally keep my VHF turned on aboard that there wasn't enough of a break in service for me to notice.

The current pump-out boat is only a couple of years old. Based on the calls to the boat I'd be very surprised if the City abandoned it. Note the pump-out boat also patrols local creeks, collects mooring ball fees, and provides first response. Call the Annapolis pump-out boat on VHF channel 17 or 410-320-6852.

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by kb79

a lot of people seem to think "other people do it, so why shouldn't i?" or "there are bigger sources of pollutants, so i'll just pollute too"

that's a pretty disappointing attitude, in my opinion.

It might be disappointing, but it's true. You can hop in the water and take a poop no problem, but you can't poop in a toilet and flush it overboard without catching a $2,000 fine. A holding tank contains ~25 gallons, primarily sea water, then urine, and a tiny amount of human solid waste. There are not that many people living on the water.

Then you read an article about MILLIONS of gallons, not primarily sea water, being dumped into the water by municipalities. The USCG isn't stopping it. Yachts are easy targets because they're owned by someone who probably has money and has a lot to lose. The real problem that results in the VAST majority of sewage leaks go unpunished and uncorrected.

SignOnSanDiego.com > News > Metro -- Undetected sewage leaks suspected in dirty beaches

It's just hypocritical and selective enforcement. If sewage is a problem, you go at the biggest polluters first to stop the biggest parts of the problem, and then mop up the small polluters, or at least do them both at the same time. All I see from the port commissions is easy targetting private boat owners, while the military and municipalities get a pass or a slap on the wrist at best.

Sewage spill closes Little Corona Beach in Orange County | L.A. NOW | Los Angeles Times

Reed said the water district estimates that 18,000 gallons of sewage escaped before the spill was contained at 1:05 p.m.

[jkleins]

Using this logic I guess now it is okay to dump our waste oil and fuel since we have a precedent of BP dumping millions of gallons into the gulf just like the cities occasionally do with waste when things go wrong. It should be fine since we are a small community and don't use much oil compared to the spill. And certainly since industry routinely break the law and dump chemicals into rivers and streams because of poor enforcement it should be fine for me to dump my paint thinner and excess paint since comparatively it is only a small amount compared to all those industrial culprits.
Maybe we ought to rethink this line of logic.

Jim

[rebel heart]

Originally Posted by jkleins

Using this logic I guess now it is okay to dump our waste oil and fuel since we have a precedent of BP dumping millions of gallons into the gulf just like the cities occasionally do with waste when things go wrong. It should be fine since we are a small community and don't use much oil compared to the spill. And certainly since industry routinely break the law and dump chemicals into rivers and streams because of poor enforcement it should be fine for me to dump my paint thinner and excess paint since comparatively it is only a small amount compared to all those industrial culprits.
Maybe we ought to rethink this line of logic.

Jim

That only works if the biggest polluters weren't getting fined at all, which isn't the case in oil. BP (and plenty of smaller spills) get hit by big time fines. The USCG doesn't care who spills oil; they have have a one-size-fits-all response which I've seen to be harsh, but even and applied equally. That is far from the case with sewage.

Other great examples are bottom paint. There are several instances where private pleasure boats can held to a much higher standard than anything else on the water.

[GeoPowers]

The EPA does pursue punishment for violations of both the Clean Water Act and Clean Air Act.

OECA Cases and Settlements | Compliance and Enforcement | US EPA

Criminal Case Activities | Criminal Enforcement | Compliance and Enforcement | US EPA

This doesn't take into account the litigation municipalities face by NGO's.

BTW, San Diego settled with a $1 billion concent decree in 2007 as a result of spills like the one linked in a previous post.
07/31/2007: San Diego agrees to estimated $1 billion for sewage system improvements and maintenance

[osirissail]

The argument still is why prosecute the "ant" when the "elephant" is not made to stop his dumping. And as to fining municipal or state governmental entities - the headlines sound great but the reality is the fines are never collected and instead converted into "promises" to fund improvements or repairs to existing systems that have been left un-repaired or non-functional because the local government entity does not have the money to do the work. The "Fed's" cannot and will not enforce a fine and put another government entity "out of business." If they could, half the major cities in the USA would cease to exist. Or as was tried a couple of hundred years ago, succeed from the "Union." With some States that might not be a bad thing.
- - Anyway, in the USA we are the "United States" and States rights preclude Federal interference in local matters beyond fiscal incentives to try to entice the locals to "clean up" their act. And that has had a dismal track record.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by kb79

a lot of people seem to think "other people do it, so why shouldn't i?" or "there are bigger sources of pollutants, so i'll just pollute too"

that's a pretty disappointing attitude, in my opinion.

That's not necessarily the reasoning - some may reason that small potatoes are just that - the small amount of effluent that a small vessel discharges, so long as it's done with some consideration can be disposed of in a safe responsible way that can be easily absorbed by the ecosystem. If you go for a hike, do you carry out your waste or do you water a tree? It would be a different matter if a city decided to dump its sewage in the forest.

[genomic]

Some interesting points raised here.

In liklihood it won't matter terribly if you are in an area where untreated city sewage is dumped into the sea. As with an earlier poster in the Carribean.

OTOH if you are in a country/area where sewage is treated and not dumped directly into the ocean, or in relatively pristine waters, then you should maybe reconsider dumping.

An example is Brisbane (where an earlier pro-dump poster lives). Brisbane is surrounded by a semi-enclosed bay that is very popular with fishermen, swimmers, divers and a multitude of other aquatic recreationalists. It contains extensive oyster farms. It is also very popular with boaters. If all the 10's of 1000's of boaters dump their untreated effluent into the bay, then it is easy to see the health risks that can be gererated (see previous link discussing the spread of pathogens spread through untreated sewage dumping, particularly WRT shellfish).

As a final note, it's very disturbing to me that there are many areas of the world where you can't swim, or require hepatitis shots if you do, due to the human excrement we dump into the ocean. Me dumping my tank may be a 'drop in the ocean' as it were, but if I reduce my direct contribution to that disgusting situation I consider it a step (yes even a very small one) in the right direction.

[Mariness]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

That's not necessarily the reasoning - some may reason that small potatoes are just that - the small amount of effluent that a small vessel discharges, so long as it's done with some consideration can be disposed of in a safe responsible way that can be easily absorbed by the ecosystem. If you go for a hike, do you carry out your waste or do you water a tree? It would be a different matter if a city decided to dump its sewage in the forest.

"Done with consideration" is all that is wanted. As long as you exist, you are going to have an impact. You might minimize it, but you can't eliminate it. But on the poll, option 3, 5, & 6 (and 3 & 5 are really the same thing) are not using consideration. If you worry only about getting caught, you are not being responsible or concerned for others. And if you do it regularly, ditto. This is the course of action by someone who is too lazy or cheap to bother with going to the pumpout.
If I am hiking in an area where it is necessary, yes I "water a tree". But if I am just visiting our local park for a day, I wait until I get back to the office, where there is a bathroom. There is a nature preserve near us where people apparently feel that if there's no sidewalk, anything goes. I don't feel particularly like hiking somewhere where the side of the trail is regularly dotted with little piles of human ----. Complete with trail maps that were used as toilet paper. It's just as inappropriate in the water.
But doing it just because, and then saying "But the other guys did it first/worse" is the same argument my high schoolers used to give me for fighting/cheating/all kinds of things. As someone else already said - 2 wrongs don't make a right, even if one of those wrongs was massive compared to the other. Given how many people around here are "rugged individualists," I am surprised to see claims that what someone else does could even potentially be an excuse for your bad behavior. (Of course, if you actually think it isn't bad behavior, then that isn't true, but then you wouldn't have been making the "cities dump too" argument in the first place.)

And finally,

Wrapped up in hair care science. and coated in relig

I don't know what to think of this, what does "hair care science" mean?
I don't even go at religion with religious fervor, so I don't think that applies. But believing in personal responsibility and protecting the environment to the extent you are capable doesn't seem that extreme to me.