Propane, the kiss of death

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s funny, I took a conclusion from a respected source about the added safety of induction cooking vs propane or electric cooking and posted this as if it was my opinion and it got attacked from many sides

It is however factual: with induction, no combustible gas is released into the air which makes it safer and also it only heats iron molecules so can’t set things on fire like a regular electric cooktop can so it is safer.

Electrical wiring fire? So you really mean that when cooking on propane, the boat does not have electrical wiring? No electric water kettles, coffeemakers, tools?

So electrical wiring doesn't heat up in your boat when you pump lots of amps thru the wiring?

Yes, cruising boats generally all have some wiring but the more you add the more failure points and this is especially true of high amperage devices like induction stoves.

I'm not suggesting a properly installed induction stove is death waiting to happen but neither is a propane stove. So far, you haven't established clear evidence that it's safer. Of course, it's difficult as they make up a tiny percentage of stove installations on boats.

[rslifkin]

On the explosion vs fire thing, either one may cost you the boat. But a fire is more likely to give you time to bail out. An explosion very well may incapacitate you before you even know what's happening.



But yes, either system requires proper installation and maintenance to make sure it's safe.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by Tayana42

It’s a bad combination of molecular chemistry that leads to propane explosions. It’s all those protons, electrons and morons mixed together.

This i great! Many applications of concept.

[double u]

...I seem to recall that the expolsive mixture with air is from 6-10%...

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You have to define what an explosion is first...



I've seen a few propane explosions...usually they are more scary than dangerous. A quick poof of flame pops that doesn't have time to start a fire...of course this is when it's not confined.

Accumulated propane Confined inside the boat from the gas supply to the stove is the concern.
Someone mentioned an expansion factor of 270

https://youtu.be/Yxm3uMy6MPI

But not to be discounted is a propane tank explosion in the cockpit.

https://youtu.be/sCX6Srtu9pU

Or the Darwin method of BBQing

https://youtu.be/CUrRjxpJp9U

Or some target practice
https://youtu.be/ptend5StNB8

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I've seen a few propane explosions...usually they are more scary than dangerous. .

20yrs of marine insurance investigations and I've never seen nor investigated a propane explosion.
(I stopped doing claims work 10yrs ago due to disgust with the fraud)

All "explosions" I investigated were gasoline powered power boats which were ignited by electricity.
Every one of the "fires" I investigated (mostly write-offs) were caused by electrical issues. These tend to to take at least two other boats with them and occassionally an entire marina.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

20yrs of marine insurance investigations and I've never seen nor investigated a propane explosion.
(I stopped doing claims work 10yrs ago due to disgust with the fraud)

All "explosions" I investigated were gasoline powered power boats which were ignited by electricity.
Every one of the "fires" I investigated (mostly write-offs) were caused by electrical issues. These tend to to take at least two other boats with them and occassionally an entire marina.

No one can argue this. These are the facts.

I’d say the reason we have so many threads about induction vs propane is that they’re both equally as safe if their energy supplies are carefully designed and installed.

There is no right answer as to which is more safe if both are properly installed.

[Pelagic]

In comnercial Marine training we were taught about the power of BLEVE's

https://youtu.be/NuPVEsQaGB0


https://youtu.be/sCFV_fsGmsc


This explains well the stages of a bleme

https://youtu.be/mukRX-0WaUg

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

20yrs of marine insurance investigations and I've never seen nor investigated a propane explosion.
(I stopped doing claims work 10yrs ago due to disgust with the fraud)

All "explosions" I investigated were gasoline powered power boats which were ignited by electricity.
Every one of the "fires" I investigated (mostly write-offs) were caused by electrical issues. These tend to to take at least two other boats with them and occassionally an entire marina.

BBQ is the most common but I've seen stoves do it also. Not a good thing but huge difference from what you see in action movies. For the most part you will be driven out of the boat by the smell long before it gets to that point.

I have no doubt there have been cases of catastrophic propane explosions but I doubt they are any more of a concern than electrical fires. If there really was that big of a difference, you would see huge premiums for boats with propane systems...instead it's the default stove power supply.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Accumulated propane Confined inside the boat from the gas supply to the stove is the concern.
Someone mentioned an expansion factor of 270

https://youtu.be/Yxm3uMy6MPI

But not to be discounted is a propane tank explosion in the cockpit.

https://youtu.be/sCX6Srtu9pU

Or the Darwin method of BBQing

https://youtu.be/CUrRjxpJp9U

Or some target practice
https://youtu.be/ptend5StNB8

Sure, so is an electrical fire a concern...unless you are willing to stop eating cooked food, you will have to balance risks.

[AlanT]

For all the scary stories posted above it is worth bearing in mind that almost all of the world's fleets of charter boats, and certainly near 100% of the sailing charter fleet, uses propane. That is tens of thousands of boats, operated by charterers with widely ranging experience levels. Those boats have 1. A propane locker with overboard drain 2. A solenoid to close the valve in the propane locker and 3. one or more sniffer devices in the cabin.

How many charter boats blow up each year......?

I suspect that most if not all accidents are caused by owners who ignore, replace, modify the safety features.

~A

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by AlanT

For all the scary stories posted above it is worth bearing in mind that almost all of the world's fleets of charter boats, and certainly near 100% of the sailing charter fleet, uses propane. That is tens of thousands of boats, operated by charterers with widely ranging experience levels. Those boats have 1. A propane locker with overboard drain 2. A solenoid to close the valve in the propane locker and 3. one or more sniffer devices in the cabin.

How many charter boats blow up each year......?

I suspect that most if not all accidents are caused by owners who ignore, replace, modify the safety features.

~A

Not indeed -- the Lord Trenchard case is an example, which should be warning to us all, that you can blow yourself up with propane even when you have better maintenance and better procedures than any of us have: https://www.gov.uk/maib-reports/expl...people-injured


I bet there are some people in this very thread who don't have a gas alarm, and/or who have never tested their gas lockers for leaks.


Someone is killed or maimed almost every year in the UK in a propane/butane explosion on a boat:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2508932

and in the U.S. it happens from time to time:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post2508932

[Pelagic]

I don't understand why it is so difficult to accept that a propane explosion is far more dangerous than a fire
Just like gasoline, the kinetic energy released in an explosion is instant, with no time to escape

I guarantee that if a diesel outboard became comparable to a gas one........everyone would switch so that we could do away with carrying gasoline on board

[Manateeman]

People have survived propane explosions. The noise alone brings firefighters and medical teams. The real “kiss of death” is a gas far more powerful than propane.
Like phosgene, there is no antidote.
Thinking no one caught them writing TRUMP on the back of a Federally protected species, the crew of a huge sports fisherman sleep peacefully in their diesel guzzling floating condo.
Running silent, running shallow, they don’t hear the doom makers approaching their marina. Fueled by beer and burritos, the manatees form the classic line of battle. They raise their paddles and let loose a thunder clap. The gas barage is deadly. Orcas join the celebration teaching the young how to chew fiberglass until the vessel sinks beneath the waters.
Propane a danger? Do you dare fool with the gas supply to the manatee pizza oven ?
Not this captain.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Chotu

No one can argue this. These are the facts.



….

They are not facts, they are his observations and opinions in a career dealing with the issues we are discussing. I think his experience lends his observations and opinions greater weight than most people here.

Better would be finer grained/more specific insurance company data than was provided earlier in this thread. I don’t think we are going to get it.

I think the safety aspects of propane vs electric cooking are a lot like gas vs diesel auxiliary engines on sailboats. Gas is a bit less safe than diesel but that doesn’t make it dangerous, just a bit less safe.