Propane, the kiss of death

[seandepagnier]

propane also produces 20-30ppm of NOx gas. It is borderline unsafe to use in an enclosed space because of the harmful emissions.

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist....-alternatives/


So ignoring explosions, it is better for health. One option would be to use a catalytic stove which cuts harmful emissions by 90% or more as well as slightly improving efficiency. In this case, gas stoves are generally considered safe to use indoors.

How many have catalytic stoves? I am working on one.

[CF32907]

Figured I would comment on inverters. If you use two burners or a burner and the oven your going to use between 2000 and 3000 watts at 120v while the stove is in use. You better figure your going to need a 3kw inverter minimum and another battery bank and a few more panels if solar is going to handle all your cooking needs. CaptVR

[billgewater]

It is all enough to make you consider induction cookers and /or MW ovens in preference to LPG. As the price and reliability of batteries and charging systems fall you would expect this to become a more popular solution. Gas can be unforgiving.

In Australia, the price of internal gas installation to meet varying state requirements is enough to buy a reasonable induction system. The complete installation must be done by a certified marine gas installer. Gimballed SS gas cookers are bloody expensive and insurance companies go nuts over the issue. Open air barbecues at the stern are a different matter altogether. No certification or inspection required - generally.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by billgewater

It is all enough to make you consider induction cookers and /or MW ovens in preference to LPG. As the price and reliability of batteries and charging systems fall you would expect this to become a more popular solution. Gas can be unforgiving.

In Australia, the price of internal gas installation to meet varying state requirements is enough to buy a reasonable induction system. The complete installation must be done by a certified marine gas installer. Gimballed SS gas cookers are bloody expensive and insurance companies go nuts over the issue. Open air barbecues at the stern are a different matter altogether. No certification or inspection required - generally.

If you know how long a tank of propane lasts you, then you can estimate how much electricity you would use for cooking. : https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3306142

There's another post somewhere explaining how I tested induction and butane burners for efficiency. If I find it will add the link.

Lets assume you are using a 10lb tank every 30d. That works out to about 124Ahr/d. You would want another 300-350Ahr battery capacity and 350-400W of solar panels.
In the US I would recommend a 4500-5,000W pure sine wave inverter which should prevent you from ever exceeding the capacity of the inverter. Table top appliances in the US max out at 1800W. A 2 burner induction hop and a small convection oven would draw 3600W combined maximum.

In Australia, with 230V mains, unless the appliances are wattage limited, you would need to get an 8,000W inverter. Better to get a 4500-5000W inverter and pay a little more attention to how much heat you are applying or find wattage limited appliances.

[gregorybross]

I have a pvc canister I have mounted on the stern rail for storage of propane bottles.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Yup !

I wonder if anyone has found data on the "causes" of electrical Fires on boats?

In homes, it is usually from faulty plugs, overloaded extension cords, basically sloppy handling of portable items and Bad installations.

Online guidance on proper electrical instalation would help.

HAS ANYONE FOUND A GOOD ONE THEY CAN SHARE?

Again, I would argue that an explosion is inherently more dangerous than a fire, whatever the cause.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I wonder if anyone has found data on the "causes" of electrical Fires on boats?

In homes, it is usually from faulty plugs, overloaded extension cords, basically sloppy handling of portable items and Bad installations.

Used to be true during the era when window air conditioners and portable electric heaters were common and when many homes did not have regularly spaced outlets along the walls as is now required by the NEC. Not so much any more.


Most residential electrical fires now are caused by series arc faults i.e. loose connections that emit heat intermittently under heavy load.


On boats most electrical fires are, admittedly based on anecdotal data, still due to egregiously bad wiring practices typically on older, low-value boats. Boatpoker and others have posted photos illustrating the extent of the depravity to be encountered in the wide world.


On well found boats it is the continuous high-current connections that will get you as vibration and corrosion will cause these to fail over time leading to series resistance and series arc faults that can overheat and start a fire. Things like battery cable terminations, inverter connections, generator B+ and ground, and the like. You have to start with a proper installation made with the correct terminals and crimping dies/equipment and nuts tightened with a torque wrench, and then they have to be checked periodically with an IR thermometer and retorqued with a torque wrench. Good wiring practices, proper fusing, and use of flame retardant substrate for mounting busbars etc will reduce risk.

A fact to consider is that many marine battery disconnects, contactors, large breakers, and terminal blocks are not made to the same standards as industrial DC equipment and should at a minimum be subject to periodic inspection and replacement

Again, I would argue that an explosion is inherently more dangerous than a fire, whatever the cause.

On passage a fire will kill you and yours just as dead as an explosion will

[BillKny]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

No, those studies were before induction cooking entered the equation.

Induction stoves offer a safer way to cook than electric or gas. It doesn't emit gas into the air, and it won't catch objects, like dishcloths, on fire because it only heats items with iron particles in it.

So, so WRONG... A total misunderstanding of the actual dangers involved.

The danger with electric stoves on boats is the VERY high amperage connections required between batteries and inverter. The heat generated from an electric circuit rise with the SQUARE of the amps. A very small increase in the resistance of ANY connection results in a very high temperature, more than enough to start a fire.

It is JUST LIKE A PROPANE system. Perfectly safe: If done correctly, and maintained properly. Deadly if it is not.

Neither system is inherently dangerous, both are potentially deadly. Electrical fires cause far more damage to boats than propane. You can pretend that's not true, but it is.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by BillKny

.



Neither system is inherently dangerous, both are potentially deadly. Electrical fires cause far more damage to boats than propane. You can pretend that's not true, but it is.

No disagreement. There is a lot more electrical connections to come loose and fail, so with bad installation and/or management it makes sense that electrical fires would be more numerous.

Being aware of that, testing and tightening electrical connections is a periodic job as you should assume vibration and temperature variance would slowly loosen a tight connection, causing arcing.

Knock on wood, I've only experienced one major fire which of course happened at the worst time, mid-Pacific between Tokyo and Seattle, during a Storm.

Against standing orders, seasick 2nd Engineer in the middle of the night, took a shortcut from control room up thru fidley entrance on port side, rather than thru the protected stern entrance.... he didn't dog the watertight steel door properly and it swung open with tons of water cascading down the stairwell and shortening out the main breakers for our 3 large Generators, causing a large electrical fire in Engineroom and a blackout of controls.

As scary as that was, the idea of propane gas exploding in a bilge, frightens me far more.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by CF32907

There's not a safe stove out there if operated foolishly.

A solar oven?

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

propane also produces 20-30ppm of NOx gas. It is borderline unsafe to use in an enclosed space because of the harmful emissions.

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist....-alternatives/


So ignoring explosions, it is better for health. One option would be to use a catalytic stove which cuts harmful emissions by 90% or more as well as slightly improving efficiency. In this case, gas stoves are generally considered safe to use indoors.

How many have catalytic stoves? I am working on one.

Nobody. Because we can’t carry a face cord of wood on board, and don’t have all day to wait for it to heat. There’s another option called a charcoal grill which isn’t very good below decks.

Bad accidents will happen. Storing propane below deck isn’t an accident, it’s a Darwin. We don’t need to solve a problem that’s statistically not going to happen.

[s/v Jedi]

It’s funny, I took a conclusion from a respected source about the added safety of induction cooking vs propane or electric cooking and posted this as if it was my opinion and it got attacked from many sides

It is however factual: with induction, no combustible gas is released into the air which makes it safer and also it only heats iron molecules so can’t set things on fire like a regular electric cooktop can so it is safer.

Electrical wiring fire? So you really mean that when cooking on propane, the boat does not have electrical wiring? No electric water kettles, coffeemakers, tools?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Adelie

If you know how long a tank of propane lasts you, then you can estimate how much electricity you would use for cooking. : https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3306142

There's another post somewhere explaining how I tested induction and butane burners for efficiency. If I find it will add the link.

Lets assume you are using a 10lb tank every 30d. That works out to about 124Ahr/d. You would want another 300-350Ahr battery capacity and 350-400W of solar panels.
In the US I would recommend a 4500-5,000W pure sine wave inverter which should prevent you from ever exceeding the capacity of the inverter. Table top appliances in the US max out at 1800W. A 2 burner induction hop and a small convection oven would draw 3600W combined maximum.

In Australia, with 230V mains, unless the appliances are wattage limited, you would need to get an 8,000W inverter. Better to get a 4500-5000W inverter and pay a little more attention to how much heat you are applying or find wattage limited appliances.

I use a countertop induction hob powered off my inverter without problems. You have power settings so it's easy to limit the power when you need to. Full power on mine is 2000 watts, but you can do almost anything with it set on 1200 watts, it just takes a bit longer.



Unlike electrical resistance cooking, induction doesn't pull lots of power constantly, except when you're heating up something from room temp.


If I could buy a gimballed induction stove which would fit in my existing joinery, I would toss the gas tomorrow. I would think that with a decent solar installation, induction would be fine. I don't have any solar at all, but induction works fine for me too -- works perfectly off inverter while motoring, or I time generator runs to coincide with cooking (I do that anyway, even using the gas), or I just use the batteries -- cooking an average meal uses less than 10% of capacity of my bank. Only issue I have is single burner and no gimbal, therefore I keep the gas (mostly) working (although year before last the gas wasn't working for most of the year and I didn't miss it much).



Someone needs to make an induction stove for yachts, with gimbals, and with a control to limit total power.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

It’s funny, I took a conclusion from a respected source about the added safety of induction cooking vs propane or electric cooking and posted this as if it was my opinion and it got attacked from many sides

It is however factual: with induction, no combustible gas is released into the air which makes it safer and also it only heats iron molecules so can’t set things on fire like a regular electric cooktop can so it is safer.

Electrical wiring fire? So you really mean that when cooking on propane, the boat does not have electrical wiring? No electric water kettles, coffeemakers, tools?

Exactly right.

We've been round these houses before, but how does induction cooking present any material risk of electrical fire which isn't already present on the boat? Only if the boat entirely lacked an electrical system and you installed it only for that purpose, would the total risk of electrical fire be entirely attributable to electric cooking. People don't know how to evaluate risk; how to think about incremental vs total risk. If you are using any other electrical devices on board which load the system enough to start a fire in a bad connection, then induction cooking adds only a tiny incremental risk of electrical fire to what you already have.

I've actually had a fire on my boat due to something flying around the cabin in a heavy seaway and getting into a propane flame on the stove. Fortunately I was standing right there and put it right out, but this is a risk on top of all the other ones, which doesn't exist with induction.

Not to mention health aspects of combustion products in the cabin air (I have powered ventilation over my gas stove, but even using that it makes me feel slightly sick using the gas).

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by BillKny

So, so WRONG... A total misunderstanding of the actual dangers involved.

The danger with electric stoves on boats is the VERY high amperage connections required between batteries and inverter. The heat generated from an electric circuit rise with the SQUARE of the amps. A very small increase in the resistance of ANY connection results in a very high temperature, more than enough to start a fire.

I think we all understand where electrical fires come from. So how much risk does electrical cooking add, to a boat which already has an electrical system, already has high powered electrical gear on board? See below.

Originally Posted by BillKny

It is JUST LIKE A PROPANE system. Perfectly safe: If done correctly, and maintained properly. Deadly if it is not.

This represents a total misunderstanding of how risk works. Also, the common fallacy of believing that (1) I'm smart; those who have accidents are stupid, therefore nothing to worry about; and (2) it's done right therefore zero risk. This is totally wrong, and dangerously so.

First of all: Neither electrical systems NOR gas systems are "perfectly safe", not under ANY conditions, and no matter how smart you are or how extremely competently your installation was done. There is ALWAYS risk.

Second: Electrical systems are not indeed "JUST LIKE PROPANE" in terms of risk. Electrical fires are more common, but less catastrophic. But most importantly -- the risk of electrical cooking is not equal to the total risk of having an electrical system on board. The incremental risk will be almost zero, basically limited to risks associated with only the connections in that one circuit. The added risk of fire from your shore power connection or inverter/battery connection associated with electrical cooking approaches zero, if you have any other comparable loads on board. In layman's terms: If you have a bad inverter connection, you're going to have a fire with or without electrical cooking. Having electrical cooking adds nothing to that particular risk.

To put it another way, you will dramatically improve safety on your boat by getting rid of the gas system altogether and installing induction. You have just eliminated ALL the risks associated with gas while adding almost zero ADDITIONAL risk from electrical fires.

Originally Posted by BillKny

Neither system is inherently dangerous, both are potentially deadly. Electrical fires cause far more damage to boats than propane. You can pretend that's not true, but it is.

Do you not see the logical problem with this sentence? Electrical fires are more common than propane explosions, but that does not in any way, shape, or form imply that gas cooking is safer than electrical cooking. That is completely illogical. That would only be even partially true, if the only thing we used electrical power for on board was cooking.