Propane, the kiss of death

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Agreed but induction still has a single point of failure in the end. Everything depends on the inverter. A generator could be installed but the trend over the last few years has been to get rid of them not to add new ones! generators are becoming very rare onboard (unless you have a really big boat) Not to mention its a very big expense to support cooking!

Propane has the advantage of redundancy. If you have issue with the electrics (and who hasn't) you can simply bypass the solenoid temporarily and keep cooking! I've had to do that before as for some reason propane solenoids don't seem to last very long. If you loose your inverter (and it happens) you loose the ability to feed the crew.

For redundancy you can have a spare inverter, and solar. Still better to have diesel genset too.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by David Ess

Yes, quite correct on those points, but you didnt t factor in that they can also be powered by solar, thus efficiency goes way up. Still though, the main point was not efficiency in the thread, but safety as compared to the 'kiss of death' propane gas alternative.

Not sure what type of boat you have (if any at all), but sounds like you are at the beginning of your boating dream. FYI - here are decent articles on proper installation and usage of propane systems.

https://www.boatus.com/app/views/201...-on-a-boat.asp

According to BoatUS analysis of boat fires, most common cause is not propane by electrical:

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...-powered-boats

As far as "kiss of death," the data does not support the assertion - electrical fires are much more common. According to BoatUS insurance statistics, almost half of boat fires are caused by wiring (37% DC and 9% AC).

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...rd-fire-claims

There are good reasons to install propane cooking appliances, and there are good reasons to install electric cooking appliances. "Kiss of Death" hyperbole is not one of them.

Good luck with your boat search! Forums like these are great assets to assist in finding a Unicorn.

Peter

[David Ess]

[QUOTE=mvweebles;3500025]Not sure what type of boat you have (if any at all), but sounds like you are at the beginning of your boating dream. FYI - here are decent articles on proper installation and usage of propane systems.

https://www.boatus.com/app/views/201...-on-a-boat.asp

According to BoatUS analysis of boat fires, most common cause is not propane by electrical:

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...-powered-boats

As far as "kiss of death," the data does not support the assertion - electrical fires are much more common. According to BoatUS insurance statistics, almost half of boat fires are caused by wiring (37% DC and 9% AC).

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...rd-fire-claims

There are good reasons to install propane cooking appliances, and there are good reasons to install electric cooking appliances. "Kiss of Death" hyperbole is not one of them.

Good luck with your boat search! Forums like these are great assets to assist in finding a Unicorn.

Peter[/QUOTE

The point on electrical fires was already addressed above, namely that most are on improperly installed, and very old worn out equipment on decades old boats. Thus invalid as analogies. Another point that has been rebutted was that of electric induction stoves, or indeed, electric boats being a trend, its not, but a game changer as with cars. The OP first used the term , 'kiss of death' was in reference to those boats that have already blown up because of propane, and those future ones that undoubtedly will. Its not even clear what your ....unicorn search....comments could be about. Ive never mentioned any fantasy boats, but me and others have mentioned some real world electric,hybrid ones. If youre unaware of them you could always look them up. Some are.... Alva Yachts, Herley Yachts, Silent Yachts. Mostly theyre foreign builders. As usual American ones are way behind, except for the electrification of cars with Tesla.

[mvweebles]

[QUOTE=David Ess;3500086]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

Not sure what type of boat you have (if any at all), but sounds like you are at the beginning of your boating dream. FYI - here are decent articles on proper installation and usage of propane systems.

https://www.boatus.com/app/views/201...-on-a-boat.asp

According to BoatUS analysis of boat fires, most common cause is not propane by electrical:

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...-powered-boats

As far as "kiss of death," the data does not support the assertion - electrical fires are much more common. According to BoatUS insurance statistics, almost half of boat fires are caused by wiring (37% DC and 9% AC).

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...rd-fire-claims

There are good reasons to install propane cooking appliances, and there are good reasons to install electric cooking appliances. "Kiss of Death" hyperbole is not one of them.

Good luck with your boat search! Forums like these are great assets to assist in finding a Unicorn.

Peter[/QUOTE

The point on electrical fires was already addressed above, namely that most are on improperly installed, and very old worn out equipment on decades old boats. Thus invalid as analogies. Another point that has been rebutted was that of electric induction stoves, or indeed, electric boats being a trend, its not, but a game changer as with cars. The OP first used the term , 'kiss of death' was in reference to those boats that have already blown up because of propane, and those future ones that undoubtedly will. Its not even clear what your ....unicorn search....comments could be about. Ive never mentioned any fantasy boats, but me and others have mentioned some real world electric,hybrid ones. If youre unaware of them you could always look them up. Some are.... Alva Yachts, Herley Yachts, Silent Yachts. Mostly theyre foreign builders. As usual American ones are way behind, except for the electrification of cars with Tesla.

Arguably, every fire - electric or propane - is caused by some sort of installation or maintenance error. Both are safe when properly installed and maintained. Apparently, this is more difficult with electrical systems than propane evidence the large percentage of boat fires caused by electric systems. Either system can be made safe. Either system can be dangerous.

I have been following electric and hybrid boat propulsion since the late 1990s - almost 25-years. Every few years, some builder comes along with fantastic claims of boats with glossy renderings vs pictures of actual boats (Silent and Alva being recent ones).

So David, sounds like you don't own a boat but are searching. How do you intend to use the boat? Sail or Power?

Peter

[David Ess]

[QUOTE=mvweebles;3500107]

Originally Posted by David Ess

Arguably, every fire - electric or propane - is caused by some sort of installation or maintenance error. Both are safe when properly installed and maintained. Apparently, this is more difficult with electrical systems than propane evidence the large percentage of boat fires caused by electric systems. Either system can be made safe. Either system can be dangerous.

I have been following electric and hybrid boat propulsion since the late 1990s - almost 25-years. Every few years, some builder comes along with fantastic claims of boats with glossy renderings vs pictures of actual boats (Silent and Alva being recent ones).

So David, sounds like you don't own a boat but are searching. How do you intend to use the boat? Sail or Power?

Peter

So from pointing out boats that actually exist, you make the false assumption that I, myself, dont have any boat at all. By the same false logic, when I pointed out that electric/hybrid cars exist, and are getting better, will you concern yourself about if, or what sort of car I might have?

[MVDarlin]

Best to store outside in a vented enclosure.

[mvweebles]

[QUOTE=David Ess;3500193]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

So from pointing out boats that actually exist, you make the false assumption that I, myself, dont have any boat at all. By the same false logic, when I pointed out that electric/hybrid cars exist, and are getting better, will you concern yourself about if, or what sort of car I might have?

If this were a car forum, I would ask about what car you have as it would be relevant. This is a boating forum that appeals mostly to sailors but some power-boat owners such as myself too. I think its relevant to understand someone's path that brings them to a special-interest group such as CF. Credibility is part of the silent dialogue many have when reading someone's post.

For the most part, perhaps one exception, the electric boats you cite do not actually exist. The builders use renderings on a website but have not generated enough interest to actually sell a boat. This is common and has been for years - most builders in this stage do not make it over the hump and into mass production.

You seem very passionate about electric boats. Since they don't really exist to any great extent, and you haven't stated your experience, I assumed you are in the exploratory phase of buying, not actually an owner - some of the statements seem lifted from gushingly optimistic marketing claims. Nothing wrong with that - we've all been there. Just trying to help

Peter

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Adelie

If the electricity is solar produced then the efficiency of the generator is not an issue.

The amount of fuel is also not the issue.
For some it is the fear of the fuel whether that fear is rational or not makes no different.
For others it's the use of fossil fuels which society in general is increasingly looking askance at.
For others still it is the periodic inconvenience of refilling the tanks. In the industrialized countries refilling can be pretty straightforward. Elsewhere not so much.
For others it's the increased sense of independence even though they have an increased dependence on a more complex system.

Regarding...complexity, sure most modern things are more complex, and most are fine with that, for all the benefits listed already. Our houses, cars, phones, almost everything is more complex, and worth it. I for sure enjoy roasting bratwurst over an open fire, and even like the wood and coal stoves if my youth, but I wont have them in my house or boat nowadays. Ohhh, and how simple my first car was, a 55 Plymouth, compared to my current one that is like a computer on wheels. But I wouldnt want to go back. Same with boats, most systems way more complex, and way more better. My prediction, just as most boats no longer have wood or coal stoves, most wont have propane either in the near future. Attn boaters: those of you who have ordered new yachts in the past year, how many ordered propane cookers, how many induction? Ill tabulate the answers.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Chotu

What a complex discussion for a simple choice and rightfully so!

Having a boat that is independent from land other than its primary propulsion fuel is a tremendous advantage. This part cannot be overstated.

Then there is the “one fuel” argument. This is why I went with a lot of unconventional choices on my gasoline (outboard) powered boat. To preserve using a single fuel. I have gasoline powered generator systems which makes for an incredible “range” of generator power running off my main tanks. I can see the same advantages going all electric galley.

The part I don’t like is using “settings” to cook. 1-10?? Please. That’s not enough resolution for me to cook well. Are there ones that have more settings?

Cooking is an analog art, not a 1-10 digital experience.

It's not a simple choice or their wouldn't be a discussion would there.

There are a variety of induction stoves available that offer more than just 1-10 for heat settings. Nuwave offers hobs that let you pick the temp to the nearest 10F.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AV7JW2S...8-e3e7591428b7

[Thumbs Up]

Induction cooktop control board failure is very common and expensive to fix. How these appliances fair in a marine environment remains to be seen. Most cruisers struggle producing enough power for refrigeration. Induction cooktops need up to 1800 watts per burner.
For 2 burners on high that is 300 amps 12 volt that you will need to supply to an inverter. This amount of continuous amperage is dangerous. You would need a massive battery bank with massive cabling. This is a nice hypothetical chat but is simply not practical for most boats yet.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Thumbs Up

Induction cooktop control board failure is very common and expensive to fix. How these appliances fair in a marine environment remains to be seen. Most cruisers struggle producing enough power for refrigeration. Induction cooktops need up to 1800 watts per burner.
For 2 burners on high that is 300 amps 12 volt that you will need to supply to an inverter. This amount of continuous amperage is dangerous. You would need a massive battery bank with massive cabling. This is a nice hypothetical chat but is simply not practical for most boats yet.

In the US the burners together are limited to 1800W unless you get a counter installed model which then works off of 240V. Let's ignore that option and stick with the 2 burner 120V option. Then you buy the countertop convection oven which also draws 1800W so your combined draw at max it 3600W. That means you need a 4500W inverter.
Assuming an inverter efficiency of 90% that means you are drawing about 4,000W from the battery or 330A @ 12v.
Once the oven is started how long before it reaches temp and starts throttling the power usage. Don't know, haven't tested it yet. Let's say 5min.
The burners. Or you boiling 2 posts of water? If so then power use will stay at 1800W until they boil. Unless you are canning, I don't see that happening. Probably you will be boiling a pot and frying something else, once the fry pan reaches temp it will throttle the power. Call it 2 min, but let's use 5min anyway. So IF you start preheating, and turn both burners on at the same time you will be drawing max power for about 5min.
How big a load are you content to have your batteries support for 5min. Or worked the other way, how big a bank would you like to support that load for 5min. C/2, C/3, C/4 result in 667Ahr, 1000Ahr and 1333Ahr banks needed. What's your comfort level for max surge draw from the battery bank? My comfort level is about C/2.5 so I would like about an 833Ahr bank.

Once the oven and 1 burner are preheated let's assume the longer load is 200Ahr. That puts me at C/4.2 for draw. I'd rather it be lower but how long is it really going to go on? How long does it take to boil noodles, potatoes, whatever for 2? Or 4 if you have guests? I really don't know I haven't measured. Lets say another 5 min then loads drop further. So you need an 800Ahr bank if you don't want to ever draw more than C/2.5.

What's your total usage? If you cook almost every meal, about 125Ahr/d. If you don't cook every meal then less.
To support 125Ahr/d you need about 300Ahr of battery capacity more than you would have otherwise. If you have 530Ahr already, great, add the 300. If you have 400Ahr then you need to add about 430Ahr.

My sense is that for most boats, they will add more than the 300Ahr needed just for cooking in order to make the bank size big enough to deal with the high short term loads. That means that the batteries won't cycle as deep and they will last a significantly longer. And short term cooking loads aside the average draw will be significantly lower and Peukert will work to your advantage and the batteries will deliver more than the 830Ahr expected.

In order to support 125Ahr/d you will need to add about 450-500W of solar panels.

Cables, yeah, they need to be big. That means you need to site the inverter as close to the battery as possible. 3/0 cable has the ability to carry 300A a round trip distance of about 15'. I would aim for 4-6'. There is going to need to be a fuse and switch in the circuit too. At $10/ft, plus lugs, and fuse and switch, you're probably looking at $150.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by David Ess

For redundancy you can have a spare inverter, and solar. Still better to have diesel genset too.

That's easy to say but for most people completely impractical. a spare quality 4500watt inverter will set you back in the $1-2k, no one carries a spare genset!

I'm starting to thinks by your answers that you don't actually have a boat or any experience with boating systems!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by pcmm

That's easy to say but for most people completely impractical. a spare quality 4500watt inverter will set you back in the $1-2k, no one carries a spare genset!

I'm starting to thinks by your answers that you don't actually have a boat or any experience with boating systems!

There's a 4kW Xantrex available for $650, surge to 10kW.
https://www.amazon.com/Xantrex-813-5...3984609&sr=8-5

[rslifkin]

For those using Victron gear and wanting a good amount of inverter capacity, you could always use 2 smaller units in parallel. Then if one fails, you re-configure for single operation with the remaining unit at reduced power capacity. Plus, that keeps the DC power draw for each unit / cable down a bit.

A 24v house bank also mitigates some of the high DC current concerns. Of course, the practicality of implementing any of this varies depending on the boat in question.

[Adelie]

For those willing to risk a mistake on their own part, they could use a 3kW inverter which means they need to pay attention to staggering burner starts and not running everything on high.