Propane, the kiss of death

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Adelie

I have personally measured the efficiency of microwave(45%), butane (50%) and induction (76%) cooking.

Butane is similar to propane but have not measured.
I did not measure resistive.

But something is missing here. The efficiency of whatever is making electricity really drops the induction and microwave much lower.

I use an electric oven in the boat as well as a microwave, so I’m not pro-anything. Just continuing your example through to the end.

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Don C L

In my case, gas, but the diesels are not just a matter of space but ones that I have seen weigh about 200lbs or more. So again for a smaller boat, and sailors who may pull a muscle or two lifting the thing, it's hard to see that working well. But if you already have a diesel engine is it really considerably more efficient and cost effective to get a diesel genset too?

Thanks for your concern, but I never would lift anything 200lb. Nor would I ever have a gasoline motor on a boat. And yes, most boats have diesel motors and gensets.

[Jim Cate]

most boats have diesel motors and gensets.

Repeating this untrue statement does not make it any truer.

As pointed out above, a fairly small fraction of sailboats have gensets at all. Of those who do, many are small portable gasoline powered "Hondas". Your claim is false.

My opinion: It matters not whether induction electric or propane cooking is more safe than the other. What matters is whether either system is safe enough to be used in general practice without undue risk. The tens of thousands of successful propane installations in boats world wide is evidence that propane meets this criteria. I believe that induction cooking does too. They both meet the "safe enough" standard.

Your constant use of the "kiss of death" descriptor for propane cookery is silly and inflammatory. The real kiss of death is riding in or driving an automobile... a risk most of us willingly assume on a daily basis.

Jim (who has been cruising full time with propane for 35 years now)

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by David Ess

Thanks for your concern, but I never would lift anything 200lb. Nor would I ever have a gasoline motor on a boat. And yes, most boats have diesel motors and gensets.

Far from true. If I look around the marina where my boat is sitting and exclude the 25 percent of the boats that are sailboats, I can count less than 10 boats with diesels out of 60+ boats going up to 50-something feet.

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Repeating this untrue statement does not make it any truer.

As pointed out above, a fairly small fraction of sailboats have gensets at all. Of those who do, many are small portable gasoline powered "Hondas". Your claim is false.

My opinion: It matters not whether induction electric or propane cooking is more safe than the other. What matters is whether either system is safe enough to be used in general practice without undue risk. The tens of thousands of successful propane installations in boats world wide is evidence that propane meets this criteria. I believe that induction cooking does too. They both meet the "safe enough" standard.

Your constant use of the "kiss of death" descriptor for propane cookery is silly and inflammatory. The real kiss of death is riding in or driving an automobile... a risk most of us willingly assume on a daily basis.

Jim (who has been cruising full time with propane for 35 years now)

My quote doesnt even mention sailboats, just...boats. And re sailboats and gensets, sure , tiny ones dont, but any decent sized sailboat does. On the safety of electrical induction stoves, it indeed DOES matter, if that is a point of discussion. And re the "tens of thousands ".....of successful applications, I admitted that was true of propane and wood and coal already. But of all types, elec induction is both the safest, plus has all the other attributes others have mentioned above.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by David Ess

I was agreeing with what another guy stated. Im not sure if he has a boat, but I do, and one with high standards.. In any case its irrelevant to the matter of what low standards so many boats have.

What kind of boat do you have? Sail or power? Day-use or longer distance cruiser?

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by mvweebles

What kind of boat do you have? Sail or power? Day-use or longer distance cruiser?

Which point on standards are you referring to? I seldom get flak for advocating high standards.

[mvweebles]

Originally Posted by David Ess

Which point on standards are you referring to? I seldom get flak for advocating high standards.

Not commenting on your standards. Just curious about what kind of boat you have. Provides context to understand the positions you advocate. For example, most powerboats above about 35 feet do indeed have generators and can support an electric stove. Few sailboats under 50-feet have generators and thus traditionally have propane.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

My opinion: It matters not whether induction electric or propane cooking is more safe than the other. What matters is whether either system is safe enough to be used in general practice without undue risk. The tens of thousands of successful propane installations in boats world wide is evidence that propane meets this criteria. I believe that induction cooking does too. They both meet the "safe enough" standard.

This has been an interesting thread about FEARS, a superstitious moniker as a Title and what constitutes a real risk.

The OP felt that storing portable canistors inside a locker was dangerous, yet some could argue that keeping it dry knowing you will use it soon, makes it "safe enough".

Statistics aside, I personally felt that if you had the opportunity to remove inside propane cooking from your boat, you should consider it. I admit to being afraid of Propane Explosions, even though like Jim, I have cooked with propane for many years, until lately.

Maybe it was the nightmarish image of the Title and the concern that this social forum would somehow condem propane cooking on yachts.

That of course is silly, everything we do carries a risk and it is the individual's management of and respect for those risks that matters.

So maybe a more interesting question as a sailor is:

How do you manage your Fears?

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by David Ess

My quote doesnt even mention sailboats, just...boats. And re sailboats and gensets, sure , tiny ones dont, but any decent sized sailboat does. On the safety of electrical induction stoves, it indeed DOES matter, if that is a point of discussion. And re the "tens of thousands ".....of successful applications, I admitted that was true of propane and wood and coal already. But of all types, elec induction is both the safest, plus has all the other attributes others have mentioned above.

Guess the above depends on your definition of "tiny" and "decent" but as others have stated. Gensets on sailboats is becoming rarer and rarer except for maybe 60ft and larger. Its just not really a thing on sailboats. Powerboats is another story. but at my yacht club (165+ boats roughly 90% sail) I can think of 1 sailboat that "might" have a genset but the rest of us don't and have no need for one.

Propane and Induction both have their use case. Propane is perfectly safe when respected and installed correctly and Induction ( and its subsystems) can be more dangerous if installed incorrectly.

[Island Time O25]

My now 40 year old 36 footer came with CNG stove and two tanks. My old salt cruiser
buddies were recommending I switch to propane. I held out and am glad I did. At some point I was contemplating of moving the boat and myself to Florida. So when I chanced upon two extra CNG tanks at a marine yard sale for all of $5 each I grabbed them on the spot. I figured that 4 CNG tanks with the help of a pressure cooker, hermos bottle and frequent railing BBQs (those 1lb cans are kept in WM 3 can cloth bag over the stern rail) will last me for at least a year, give or take.

Funny thing happened. Since getting those 2 extra cylinders I never used them, only one larger tank which came with boat, as my plans changed and I just do coastal sailing here in New England. My only gripe with CNG is its cost. But that is mitigated by the ability to fill up cheaper from a bus facility or some such, provided that cert. date stamped is current.

Also I do not have any gasoline onboard. Oars for short dinghy hops and electric Minkota for a bit longer hops or when I'm too tired to row.

[Thumbs Up]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

This has been an interesting thread about FEARS, a superstitious moniker as a Title and what constitutes a real risk.

The OP felt that storing portable canistors inside a locker was dangerous, yet some could argue that keeping it dry knowing you will use it soon, makes it "safe enough".

Statistics aside, I personally felt that if you had the opportunity to remove inside propane cooking from your boat, you should consider it. I admit to being afraid of Propane Explosions, even though like Jim, I have cooked with propane for many years, until lately.

Maybe it was the nightmarish image of the Title and the concern that this social forum would somehow condem propane cooking on yachts.

That of course is silly, everything we do carries a risk and it is the individual's management of and respect for those risks that matters.

So maybe a more interesting question as a sailor is:

How do you manage your Fears?

Hopefully in this case with:
Regular leak checks with soapy liquid on all connections.
A brand new shutoff solenoid and gas detector every few years.
A thorough understanding of the nature of this heavier than air liquefiable gas.
Proper fire extinguisher mounted within easy reach.
Carry burn trauma wound dressing materials.
Make sure there is a bright indicator reminding you to turn the switch off.
Upgrade to an electric galley if your boat is big enough and you can afford it.
Strict adherence to the never miss the evening beverage hour rule or whatever it takes to help you relax (unless on a passage).
Eliminate bad odors on your boat and pay attention to smell (especially rotten asparagus smell).

In general? How does the saying go? Every day in port the waves get bigger?
Go sailing. Know your boat's strengths and limitations. Stay levelheaded and practice vigilance. Realize there are no guarantees in life except that you will never get out alive so try to have a good time, don't worry, be happy.

[Pelagic]

Thumbs Up !

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Chotu

But something is missing here. The efficiency of whatever is making electricity really drops the induction and microwave much lower.

I use an electric oven in the boat as well as a microwave, so I’m not pro-anything. Just continuing your example through to the end.

You're absolutely right. There are lots of advantages of induction (and microwave) over gas cooking, and I maintain safety is a huge advantage of induction over gas for most boats. But efficiency is NOT an advantage of induction, if you are powering it with a generator. It certainly takes more fuel if you're converting it first into electrical power then back into heat. However brilliant the last conversion stage is, with induction, you've still got a generator which is only 30% or so efficient in doing the first stage. And if you're using generated electrical power stored first in batteries, then it's even worse.


I don't think this is really important since we are talking about small amounts of fuel. And the advantage over gas is that the fuel is drawn from your main tank so you don't have the hassle of providing a separate fuel. But we shouldn't overstate the case by claiming that it's more efficient.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Don C L

In my case, gas, but the diesels are not just a matter of space but ones that I have seen weigh about 200lbs or more. So again for a smaller boat, and sailors who may pull a muscle or two lifting the thing, it's hard to see that working well. But if you already have a diesel engine is it really considerably more efficient and cost effective to get a diesel genset too?

Farymann had a 7hp 1 cyl that weighs 141lb, but their website hasn't been updated since 2010 so I assume they're defunct.

Yanmar has a 9hp that is 157lb.
Betamarine atomic-4 replacement is 14hp at 200lb. Since the A-4 is about 325lb I think you would be about 125lb ahean and $10k behind.

The original drawing for the Columbia shows a small outboard in a well behind the rudder. You could beef that up and replace with a 6,8 or 9.9hp high thrust at 61,107&102lb for $1700, $3000 ,$3700