Propane, the kiss of death

[Group9]

I guess the moral of this story is that some people can handle huge amounts of high explosives their entire lives and never have an accident.

Then we have a guy who managed to blow up a boat and sink it with a 1 lb propane bottle.

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Group9

I guess the moral of this story is that some people can handle huge amounts of high explosives their entire lives and never have an accident.

Then we have a guy who managed to blow up a boat and sink it with a 1 lb propane bottle.

Exactly.....most accidents are human error, often by idiots.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by David Ess

If we start to see threads with examples of induction stoves causing fires, Ill have to acknowledge them. I readily acknowledge that many propane and alcohol and wood stove boats have managed just fine.

The induction stove itself I think is very safe. The concern is more from the devices to generate the electricity to power the induction stove. Electrical fires are unfortunately reasonably common.

Diesel generators are not a great concern, but many boats these days are choosing to avoid a diesel generator or at least install systems that minimise the generator run time and/or provide a back up to increase reliability.

This involves large solar arrays, large alternators, very large inverters and substantial (often lithium) battery banks, high capacity shore power and sometimes petrol generators. As electric cooking involves considerable energy input, these systems particuarly on 12v are on the limit of what is technical feasible.

These electrical system can, and hopefully will, be installed safely, but it requires more detailed knowledge than propane systems, which are by comparison very simple.

I think it is little too early to tell if these high powered electrical systems will be safer than propane systems, particularly in the long term as modifications are incorporated and equipment starts to age. Personally, I suspect electric cooking will, on average, be slightly safer than propane, but the difference will be small and this will depend very much on the quality of the installation and maintenance.

There are other very significant pros and cons between electric and propane. These differences are far more important to most owners than any slight change in safety that exist between these two energy sources.

[Nicholson58]

Backyard Mole Removal
Getting rid of moles
Run a gas hose from your BBQ propane tank into the mole hole.
Let off a “little bit” of gas into the hole.
Propane is heavier than air and will settle into the low spots below ground.
Carefully Ignite... from a distance.

I wish I could attach the video for thi one.

Got the mole, the BBQ, the entire sodded yard. Epic

Try this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XBQbS0ACm4

Many YouTube on this

[timb7734]

Year before last at my marina in Michigan a sailor and his wife had their 20lb propane tank set off, again due to poor storage and handling procedures. Blew a hole in the deck sure, but the real damage that took both their lives was the ensuing fire.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by David Ess

OK, it was all a misunderstanding then. Great to hear you dont think propane is safer. But I didnt see any irrational fear in this thread, but just examples of propane blowing up. If we start to see threads with examples of induction stoves causing fires, Ill have to acknowledge them. I readily acknowledge that many propane and alcohol and wood stove boats have managed just fine.

By propagation of "irrational fear" I meant posts like yours where you say ...

"But no problem if you want to die on the hill of saying that the "kiss of death" propane is safer."

PS. I can't find any posts that claim propane is safer than induction. I think your battle is internal

[timb7734]

All said, the doubters here about propane safety are ignoring the stated insurance company statistics that 50 percent of boat fires are a result of electrical issues, and only 1 percent are from cooking fuels. Better tear out all your wiring including the induction stove, add in a propane system and you will be MUCH safer.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by timb7734

All said, the doubters here about propane safety are ignoring the stated insurance company statistics that 50 percent of boat fires are a result of electrical issues, and only 1 percent are from cooking fuels. Better tear out all your wiring including the induction stove, add in a propane system and you will be MUCH safer.

It would be interesting to know how many of those fires, both LPG and electrical, were in ABYC compliant installations vs. clearly wrong installations.

I would expect that few boats that are compliant have fires of either kind. Electrical being more common because DIY electrical additions are more common.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by wholybee

It would be interesting to know how many of those fires, both LPG and electrical, were in ABYC compliant installations vs. clearly wrong installations.

I would expect that few boats that are compliant have fires of either kind. Electrical being more common because DIY electrical additions are more common.

I've got around 4,000 surveys under my belt.

About 90% of the boats I survey have ABYC non-compliant electrical systems ... including brand new boats. See Stoopid BoatBuilder Tricks

About 40% of propane systems I inspect are not ABYC compliant.

[scareygary]

Originally Posted by sailingabe41ds

I think ignorance on how to store and handle propane...the kiss of death is a more appropriate title. I have a couple of those bottles that I do not use any more since my bbq taps into the main propane tanks. I have them as back up, but I think I am going to get rid of them after reading this.

Abe

On a previous boat I owned, I kept the small propane bottles stored in my anchor locker on the foredeck. Just as it drains water overboard from a low point in the locker, if a propane bottle leaked, the gas would go thataway, too.. I checked them for rust and tried to never keep them all that long before using them and replacing them regularly
. No problems....

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by scareygary

On a previous boat I owned, I kept the small propane bottles stored in my anchor locker on the foredeck. Just as it drains water overboard from a low point in the locker, if a propane bottle leaked, the gas would go thataway, too.. I checked them for rust and tried to never keep them all that long before using them and replacing them regularly
. No problems....

Just FYI ... ABYC requires propane lockers to be dedicated.

[betwys1]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Propane has 50.3 MJ/kg
1lb would have 22.9 MJ
A stick of dynamite has about 1 MJ. more or less according to Wikipedia.
A very small amount of propane mixed in the air near the proper ratio will give a nice bang. It probably would be a low order detonation, but plenty to do a boat from the inside.

A kg gasoline provides 48 MJ and the same mass of TNT provides 4MJ.
Gas-fired water heaters are now required to be built on a plinth above ground level in some building codes, so the gasoline spill from a can stored in the garage does not get set off. Garages usually have ground level ventilation - but boats do not. On the other hand, some houses have water heaters set in the rafters, which guarantees a damaging leak in ten years time.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

and the BoatUS Insurance article is irrelevant

That's a good article but it was dealing with "FIRES" not "EXPLOSIONS",

Found this one on explosions

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...losions-aboard

Propane (LPG)

Many vessels today use propane cooking appliances. As builders have taken great pains over the years to make proper installations, explosions from them are fortunately rare. But especially on older boats, they still need regular inspections. Make sure that propane tanks are mounted in a compartment with a vent at the bottom to allow any propane that might leak from the tanks to go overboard. Shutoffs in the compartment can seize, and my experience with these tanks and valves is that they are rarely opened and closed; many are simply left open for convenience. Exercise them regularly, and close them when not in use. Consider this for a moment: I once saw a speaker installed with bare wires in the same compartment as the tanks. Don't make this kind of dangerous mistake — nothing that could possibly make a spark can share space with a propane tank. Also, there should always be an electrical shutoff in the galley near the stove that closes a solenoid on the tank. You don't want to have to clamber out of the galley to shut off the fuel supply in case there is a problem.
One of my pet peeves is that the hose or piping from the tank to the stove is sometimes not accessible and often hidden behind cabinets. The hose behind the stove also usually has limited access — you may have to dig a little to properly check the hoses. Inspect as much hose as possible, looking for cracks. You can use a leak-detection fluid (available at home-improvement stores or online) or a soapy solution along the hose, looking for bubbling while the valves are open. Following the ABYC's procedure, you can then check the entire system for leaks:*With the appliance valves off, open the cylinder supply valve. Close the cylinder supply valve. Observe the pressure gauge reading. The pressure indicated should remain constant for not less than three minutes. If any leakage is indicated by a drop in pressure, check the entire system with a leak detection fluid or detergent solution to locate the leak.
If you feel uncomfortable inspecting your gas or propane fuel lines or locating your shutoffs, ask your marine mechanic to examine the lines and show you where the shutoffs are; you'll feel a lot safer on the water.

I Have Nothing To Worry About. I Have A Diesel Engine

Really? Well the explosive nature of diesel is certainly not like gasoline, but during a recent claim I handled, the starter on a small sailboat diesel engine hung up when the engine was started and became red hot. Just above the starter was a non-approved automotive fuel-feed line to the engine. It melted and sprayed diesel fuel onto the hot starter, causing a fire. While it wasn't an explosion, it could have been devastating. Fortunately the owner had a fixed fire extinguishing system in the engine compartment that put out the fire. Over the years, I've seen gasoline cans for the dinghy's outboard and small propane canisters stored in a diesel engine room. Remember, parts in a diesel engine room don't have to be ignition-protected as they need to be in a gasoline engine room (and probably aren't), so nothing explosive (gasoline, propane, flammable solvents, etc.) should be kept in a diesel engine room.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Just FYI ... ABYC requires propane lockers to be dedicated.

Ah, damn.

I don’t think my installation meets ABYC either, as safe as it is. In addition to the propane connections in the “explosives locker”, I have a gasoline tank valve manifold for 3 tanks and a Racor gasoline filtration/water separation system.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

That's a good article but it was dealing with "FIRES" not "EXPLOSIONS",

Found this one on explosions

https://www.boatus.com/expert-advice...losions-aboard

Propane (LPG)

Many vessels today use propane cooking appliances. As builders have taken great pains over the years to make proper installations, explosions from them are fortunately rare. But especially on older boats, they still need regular inspections. Make sure that propane tanks are mounted in a compartment with a vent at the bottom to allow any propane that might leak from the tanks to go overboard. Shutoffs in the compartment can seize, and my experience with these tanks and valves is that they are rarely opened and closed; many are simply left open for convenience. Exercise them regularly, and close them when not in use. Consider this for a moment: I once saw a speaker installed with bare wires in the same compartment as the tanks. Don't make this kind of dangerous mistake — nothing that could possibly make a spark can share space with a propane tank. Also, there should always be an electrical shutoff in the galley near the stove that closes a solenoid on the tank. You don't want to have to clamber out of the galley to shut off the fuel supply in case there is a problem.
One of my pet peeves is that the hose or piping from the tank to the stove is sometimes not accessible and often hidden behind cabinets. The hose behind the stove also usually has limited access — you may have to dig a little to properly check the hoses. Inspect as much hose as possible, looking for cracks. You can use a leak-detection fluid (available at home-improvement stores or online) or a soapy solution along the hose, looking for bubbling while the valves are open. Following the ABYC's procedure, you can then check the entire system for leaks:*With the appliance valves off, open the cylinder supply valve. Close the cylinder supply valve. Observe the pressure gauge reading. The pressure indicated should remain constant for not less than three minutes. If any leakage is indicated by a drop in pressure, check the entire system with a leak detection fluid or detergent solution to locate the leak.
If you feel uncomfortable inspecting your gas or propane fuel lines or locating your shutoffs, ask your marine mechanic to examine the lines and show you where the shutoffs are; you'll feel a lot safer on the water.

I Have Nothing To Worry About. I Have A Diesel Engine

Really? Well the explosive nature of diesel is certainly not like gasoline, but during a recent claim I handled, the starter on a small sailboat diesel engine hung up when the engine was started and became red hot. Just above the starter was a non-approved automotive fuel-feed line to the engine. It melted and sprayed diesel fuel onto the hot starter, causing a fire. While it wasn't an explosion, it could have been devastating. Fortunately the owner had a fixed fire extinguishing system in the engine compartment that put out the fire. Over the years, I've seen gasoline cans for the dinghy's outboard and small propane canisters stored in a diesel engine room. Remember, parts in a diesel engine room don't have to be ignition-protected as they need to be in a gasoline engine room (and probably aren't), so nothing explosive (gasoline, propane, flammable solvents, etc.) should be kept in a diesel engine room.

Yup it is a good article. Especially where it says regarding propane ... "explosions from them are fortunately rare." This agrees with every other reputable source.