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Old 08-10-2021, 11:37   #196
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by sailorladd View Post
I have used propane without incident on my yacht since the late seventies.

I sailed around the world in the mid eighties and very occasionally I had to exchange the fittings required to buy or fill propane tanks for my stove. Other than that, I have had no trouble with using propane every day or whenever the boat is in use either sailing or moored...

I ALWAYS had the ten pound bottle mounted and well secured outside aft in the cockpit and the bottle was always very well painted and maintained against rust from the elements.
As the skipper/owner of my boat there was one GOLDEN RULE, when the stove had done it's job after a meal or boiled water for a beverage, the propane tank was TURNED OFF...ALWAYs!...It was always safe, clean and an economical way to cook.....

I might add, as a sometimes grumpy old sailor, that the young sailors today have either had little or no sailing experience, or are seduced into buying gizmos and contraptions for their boats that are untried and therefore not trusted and I hate to say it, are made in "Asia" that are cheap, flimsy and sometimes VERY dangerous...

My advice to young sailors who want to sail or build their boats or who might want to add "things" to their boats, do yourself a favour and get equipment that has been around awhile and well tested , take advice from old sailors who have been around twice as long as yourself..... sailing a boat out to sea is not a changing fashion, the sea is a dangerous place waiting for the gullible sailor, unsuspecting and inexperienced...very often the old fashioned way can be the BEST way...
Sure, you used propane without incident, and many used coal and wood like that too. Ive heard Capt. Cook and Lord Nelson never had any problems with their cookers ether. But it doesnt resolve the matter of propane vs induction. It was proposed that we close the thread till the CG and fifi and insurance agents join in.
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Old 08-10-2021, 11:40   #197
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by David Ess View Post
Sure, you used propane without incident, and many used coal and wood like that too. Ive heard Capt. Cook and Lord Nelson never had any problems with their cookers ether. But it doesnt resolve the matter of propane vs induction. It was proposed that we close the thread till the CG and fifi and insurance agents join in.
Have ya seen the Youtube video of Cook and Nelson arguing ladel vs. spatula
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Old 08-10-2021, 11:45   #198
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

From BoatUS Insurance

One problem with a fire aboard a boat is that unlike a house where running across the street to escape the flames is an option, on a boat there’s no place to go but overboard. Unfortunately, this violates the second rule of boating: Stay with the boat. Ironically, if enough of what the boat is floating on can be brought into the boat, the fire can usually be put out. This, however, violates the first law of boating: Keep the water outside the boat.
Obviously, stopping fires from getting started in the first place is the best defense. our Marine Insurance claim contain hundreds of fire-related claims which Seaworthy editors have spent many hours analyzing. Here’s a rundown:

1)AC and DC wiring/appliance 55%

DC shorts/wiring 30%
DC engine voltage regulator 12%
AC appliance/heater 4% shore power 4%
AC wiring/panel 2%
DC battery charger 2%
AC power surge 1%
If you’ve noticed a lot of wiring and electrical articles in Seaworthy over the years, now you know why; the number one cause of fires on boats are DC wiring faults. In the last issue of Seaworthy, we talked about your boat’s DC electrical system and the fact that the most common electrical problem was related to wires chafing. Many fires are started by battery cables, bilge pump wires, and even instrument wires chafing on hard objects like vibrating engines or sharp-edged bulkheads. Shore power can be a problem area as well; 11% of fires were started by the boat’s AC system, frequently at the shore power inlet. A few fires every year are caused by AC heaters and other household appliances that were brought on board. Electrical fires can be hard to put out because the source of the heat (a shorted wire) can reignite the fire even after a fire extinguisher has been used, which is why your boat must have a main battery switch and/or AC breaker to turn off the boat’s entire electrical system.

2) Engine/Transmission Overheat 24%
Engine overheat 19%
Turbocharger overheat 2%
Transmission overheat 2%
Backfire 1%
Nearly a quarter of boat fires (24%) were started by propulsion systems overheating. Most frequently, an intake or exhaust cooling water passage was obstructed causing the engine to overheat and begin to melt down hoses and impellers. These fires tended to be less serious, but because of the amount of smoke they made, they got undivided attention, especially since the smoke was coming from an area with flammable fuels. Often the fires were simply smoldering rubber until someone made the mistake of opening the engine compartment and allowing fresh air to enter. The best way to put out a fire that’s in the engine compartment is to have an automatic extinguisher system do it for you. If you don’t have an automatic system, the next best course of action is to shut down the engine and use an extinguisher in a fireport if your boat has one; if not, crack open the hatch and discharge the extinguisher. Keeping the water intake lines and especially the exhaust manifolds and risers free of obstructions (weeds in the intake, rust in the exhaust) and replacing worn pump impellers will prevent most overheating fires.

3) Fuel Leak 8%
This might be the worst kind of fire to have on a boat. Many boats carry over a hundred gallons of gasoline on board and burning fuel can be hard to extinguish (95% of fuel-related fires were caused by gasoline). Typical problem areas are fuel lines, connections on the engine itself, and leaking fuel tanks. Fortunately, the first warning sign is usually a gas smell that is easily detected by the average human nose—if you can smell raw gas, something’s wrong. Several fires were started by carelessness around gasoline; cleaning engine parts with gas, overfilling a fuel tank, and installing non-ignition-protected parts. One fire started when a member poured gas down a carburetor to start the engine. The engine backfired and caught the overhead on fire; the member jumped off the boat and ran to his house carrying the gas can, spilling gas along the way. The fire department report noted a zigzag burn pattern on the lawn up to the member’s front door. Fortunately, aside from some burned grass, there was no damage to the house (Claim #0009144). A gas leak has to be taken seriously since it has the potential to explode and destroy a boat – that’s why it’s critical to run the bilge blower for four or five minutes before starting the engine. Diesel is not immune from igniting either – one fire was started when a ruptured line sprayed fuel on a hot manifold.

4) Miscellaneous 7%
Some fires didn’t fit into any category—misdirected flares during a fishing tournament, anchoring in the wrong spot during a fireworks display, a child playing with matches, and even a case of spontaneous combustion from linseed-soaked rags. The only fire that couldn’t have been prevented by more care was one caused by lightning.

5) Unknown 5%
Occasionally, investigators can’t determine the cause of a fire. Sometimes, boats are completely destroyed and sometimes they sink, making finding the cause impossible.6) S


6) Stove 1% Stove fires appear to be less common (1%) than in the past, probably due to fewer alcohol stoves being installed on new boats. Still, alcohol can be a dangerous fuel; though it can’t explode, an alcohol flame is hard to see. One fire was started when a member tried to light the stove and gave up because he couldn’t see the flame. Unfortunately, he had succeeded, but didn’t realize it until he got a call from the fire department. Only one fire was started by propane; a portable stove fell off a counter and ignited a cushion.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:01   #199
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Have ya seen the Youtube video of Cook and Nelson arguing ladel vs. spatula
That was a false analogy before and still is. The thread is about propane, the kiss of death, vs induction. So it doesnt matter about spoons, or whether some guys admiral prefers gas to electric, or that old sailors anecdote/experience.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:10   #200
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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That was a false analogy before and still is. The thread is about propane, the kiss of death, vs induction. So it doesnt matter about spoons, or whether some guys admiral prefers gas to electric, or that old sailors anecdote/experience.
and the BoatUS Insurance article is irrelevant
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:12   #201
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

Boatpoker, of course most fire would be caused by other things since those things comprise more of the boat than a little stove. So we still dont know what insurers say about propane stoves vis a vis induction ones.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:17   #202
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Boatpoker, of course most fire would be caused by other things since those things comprise more of the boat than a little stove. So we still dont know what insurers say about propane stoves vis a vis induction ones.
They do know that 55% of fires are due to electrical issues while they note only one (moronic) propane fire.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:21   #203
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

Belizesailor.....exactly. Some apparently think the "kiss of death" is a slanderous name for a thread.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:28   #204
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
They do know that 55% of fires are due to electrical issues while they note only one (moronic) propane fire.
There are wires and other electrical components all over boats, and many of them decades old, and never maintained over the years, so of course you can expect lots of fires. The question is whether one installs a new stove of each type, now. But no problem if you want to die on the hill of saying that the "kiss of death" propane is safer. And its good luck for you if an insurance agaent says its irrelevant.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:32   #205
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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But no problem if you want to die on the hill of saying that the "kiss of death" propane is safer. And its good luck for you if an insurance agaent says its irrelevant.
Please point out where I said propane was safer.

My issue is the unfounded, irrational fear of propane propagated online by people with little (or no) knowledge/training in marine propane, electrical systems or marine claims investigations.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:40   #206
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Please point out where I said propane was safer.

My issue is the unfounded, irrational fear of propane propagated online by people with little (or no) knowledge/training in marine propane, electrical systems or marine claims investigations.
OK, it was all a misunderstanding then. Great to hear you dont think propane is safer. But I didnt see any irrational fear in this thread, but just examples of propane blowing up. If we start to see threads with examples of induction stoves causing fires, Ill have to acknowledge them. I readily acknowledge that many propane and alcohol and wood stove boats have managed just fine.
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:58   #207
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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During my cruising I met a groupe on a sailboat that went to Acapulco. They had a small propane lantern on board, and stored the new canisters in the main cabin. The salt environment made the canisters leak, and Propane, being heavier than air, settled in the bilge, under the engine. When starting the engine, a spark ignited the propane and blew out the side of the hull. Needless to say, the boat sank rapidly.
Gas detector?
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Old 08-10-2021, 12:59   #208
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by seandepagnier View Post
propane also produces 20-30ppm of NOx gas. It is borderline unsafe to use in an enclosed space because of the harmful emissions.

https://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist....-alternatives/


So ignoring explosions, it is better for health. One option would be to use a catalytic stove which cuts harmful emissions by 90% or more as well as slightly improving efficiency. In this case, gas stoves are generally considered safe to use indoors.

How many have catalytic stoves? I am working on one.
I don't know anyone that doesn't incorporate ventilation while cooking.
We all know we wouldn't heat with propane with out a fresh air inlet.
Water and CO2 are the main byproducts of propane use.
I think it'll be difficult to get a catalytic up to enough temp to work well safely.
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Old 08-10-2021, 13:13   #209
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
This reminded me of a friend who found a leak in a connection in a line in cabinetry behind the stove many years ago. There was no explosion and the smell tipped him off, but that tends to be one of those things you remember.
This is exactly WHY ABYC states that the only joint inside the boat should be AT the appliance. This means that there are no joints in the interior between the appliance and the tank.
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Old 08-10-2021, 13:13   #210
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Re: Propane, the kiss of death

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Originally Posted by Boatyarddog View Post
I don't know anyone that doesn't incorporate ventilation while cooking.
We all know we wouldn't heat with propane with out a fresh air inlet.
Water and CO2 are the main byproducts of propane use.
I think it'll be difficult to get a catalytic up to enough temp to work well safely.
SV Cloud Duster
I forgot about all that NOx gas too, in addition to exp!osions. And catalytic out of the running too. Winner...induction.
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