Propane, the kiss of death

[thudbranch]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I'm surprised that there's enough propane in one of those little bottles to "bl[ow] out the side of the hull" of a cruising sailboat. It would have to be very tightly confined to do that. Seems more likely to blow off the floorboards and perhaps start a fire.

Can you link to an accident report, or even a news story? It just seems ... odd.

Also seems odd to blame the salt environment. Sounds more like human error than a problem with propane or the bottles. Lots of things are dangerous if used or operated improperly.

SEVERAL POINTS-1) Propane and Gasoline and fuels are very concentrated energy sources. e.g. 1 gal gasoline = 14 sticks of dynamite. YouTube has videos of test explosions of propane on boats... 2) Salt air will corrode the metal seal/valve components on the various types of small fuel bottles. 3) I have my bottles stored in my propane locker, or on deck inside a 4" PVC pipe strapped to the lifeline stanchion. The bottom of the pipe is only partially capped, so any leakage will go overboard and dissipate.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by David Ess

False analogy, =false logic. There is a bigger difference between heavier than air propane, and electric stoves on boats, than various spoons. But if you would be all right with that message above where the yard installed the blocked propane cabinet, no problem.

I'd suggest your fears are irrational and unsupported by the numbers

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Its the old argument...
I've got the latest and greatest, if you don't follow my lead your a Dick..
Everything is great... until its not..

I didnt see anybody write that here. If somebody did, tell me his name and ill have harsh words with him! But some guys did make the bold and controversial claim that induction stoves are safer than propane.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by David Ess

But if you would be all right with that message above where the yard installed the blocked propane cabinet, no problem.

Now that comment is a little juvenille. Suggest you read the previously supplied link to my own article on Safe Boat Propane Installations

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Now that comment is a little juvenille. Suggest you read the previously supplied link to ny own article on Safe Boat Propane Installations

Not juvenile, just true. Some guy buys a boat and has them reject the induction stove, and orders propane, no problem. But I hope Im never moored beside him in port. But we should probably close the thread because nobody knows what the coast guard says, or the fi fi crews.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by David Ess

In spite of all the examples, the physics, the evidence that the best new boats are going for modern electric induction stoves, some STILL try to argue that propane is safer than electric on boats. Amazing.

You claim that the 'best' boats are going with induction stoves. That must mean your boat. It does not mean my boat, as my wife hates the electric stove in our condo and loves the gas stove in our house.

The Greens are trying to eliminate gas stoves in California houses to save the planet from global warming. I can tell you its not going to happen.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by David Ess

Not juvenile, just true. Some guy buys a boat and has them reject the induction stove, and orders propane, no problem. But I hope Im never moored beside him in port. But we should probably close the thread because nobody knows what the coast guard says, or the fi fi crews.

You win !
Feel better now ?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by David Ess

I didnt see anybody write that here. If somebody did, tell me his name and ill have harsh words with him! But some guys did make the bold and controversial claim that induction stoves are safer than propane.

Well I've been using propane/butane successfully for years on boats, from the plumbed in ones to the single burner portable camping stoves with the plug in cannisters.
Never had a fire/explosion..
Have experienced two electrical fires however and suffered aluminium erosion from electrical leaks.
But then having been a gas fitter/heating engineer in one of my previous lives likely eases my comfort somewhat, leaks are so much easier to find and fix.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by David Ess

That means youre another one.....ignore physics...ignore history.

I did not dispute all of your arguments or even your conclusion. I disputed a single argument of yours that was fallacious.

Earlier in this thread I was the poster that posted the energy contained in propane and made it clear how little was needed to create a significant explosion.

If you look back at my posting for the last 18-24mo you will see that I am a proponent of electric cooking. I did precise testing to determine the efficiency of microwave, butane and induction heating. I calculated how much extra battery and solar panel capacity you would need to make it work. And I created a chart so you can estimate you daily electric needs based on how much propane you are currently using.

That said I want people to know what they are getting into and have clear eyed understanding of the advantages and limitations.

A market trend is not evidence of safety for electric cooking. It’s evidence of changing consumer preference because of a perception of safety, or of being easier to clean or it’s sleek and sexy or ….. Or boat builders are wanting to make the change because of a larger profit margin on an electric system so they talk up electric and bad mouth propane. Of several of these reasons.

I do not believe that there is enough market penetration by electric cooking for there to be meaningful insurance industry data on losses. Let’s see in 10yr.

You can argue from first principles about which is safer but both are somewhat complex systems where humans use & maintenance patterns are involved which make them both much more complex. There are too many meaningful inputs to accurately predict which is safer. It may be that both create the same odds of dying but one has a higher likelihood of leaving somebody significantly disabled for life. Wait 10yr for the insurance data to start coming out.

On the face of it I’ll say I’d rather deal with a fire than be in an explosion.

Functionally I would rather have a self-contained electrical system with multiple redundancy (spare solar controllers, spare hob, spare inverter) than use propane where I have to travel with my tank to get a refill, source local fittings to make that possible and potentially have my tank rejected because it is not locally certified.

I would rather not deal with the greater heat and to a minor extent moisture, that propane releases into the cabin.

And I want to move away from fossil fuels to the extent I can manage.

And I think other cruisers should make the change too.

But we don’t need bogus reasons to do so, they are detriment to promoting such a change, by making bogus arguments valid arguments are called into question.

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

You claim that the 'best' boats are going with induction stoves. That must mean your boat. It does not mean my boat, as my wife hates the electric stove in our condo and loves the gas stove in our house.

The Greens are trying to eliminate gas stoves in California houses to save the planet from global warming. I can tell you its not going to happen.

No, I didnt mean my boat, but the ones of the best boat builders, Hinckley etc. Sorry, but what anybodys wife ....likes.....has nothing to do with safety. Anyway we should close the thread becausecnoby knows what the coast guard says, nor any figi crews.

[BobMc]

Propane in any type of container is never to be stored in a location where it can vent inside a boat. We stored the small backup 1# containers in the propane storage locker in a sealed plastic bag which met CG safety requirements (outside) and had to replace them about once every four years due to corrosion. The main propane tanks (11# and 20#) were aluminum and didn't corrode due to the high salt environment (about the only thing on the boat that didn't).

Propane isn't the kiss of death; stupidity is!

Originally Posted by Kihoe

During my cruising I met a groupe on a sailboat that went to Acapulco. They had a small propane lantern on board, and stored the new canisters in the main cabin. The salt environment made the canisters leak, and Propane, being heavier than air, settled in the bilge, under the engine. When starting the engine, a spark ignited the propane and blew out the side of the hull. Needless to say, the boat sank rapidly.

[David Ess]

Attn insurance agents: Do you factor in propane vs induction in your calculations?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Adelie

That said I want people to know what they are getting into and have clear eyed understanding of the advantages and limitations.
.

Great post and summary.
This is not a battle about who is right or wrong, privileged or poor.... it is a discussion about new alternatives for some, without demeaning personal preferences.

Some of you need to learn how to keep your toes outside the door

[David Ess]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Great post and summary.
This is not a battle about who is right or wrong, privileged or poor.... it is a discussion about new alternatives for some, without demeaning personal preferences.

Some of you need to learn how to keep your toes outside the door

We're still waiting to see what the CG, fifi crews and insurance agaents say about it. My bet, theyll say one side is right, the other wrong on whether propane is more dangerous than induction stoves.

[sailorladd]

I have used propane without incident on my yacht since the late seventies.

I sailed around the world in the mid eighties and very occasionally I had to exchange the fittings required to buy or fill propane tanks for my stove. Other than that, I have had no trouble with using propane every day or whenever the boat is in use either sailing or moored...

I ALWAYS had the ten pound bottle mounted and well secured outside aft in the cockpit and the bottle was always very well painted and maintained against rust from the elements.
As the skipper/owner of my boat there was one GOLDEN RULE, when the stove had done it's job after a meal or boiled water for a beverage, the propane tank was TURNED OFF...ALWAYs!...It was always safe, clean and an economical way to cook.....

I might add, as a sometimes grumpy old sailor, that the young sailors today have either had little or no sailing experience, or are seduced into buying gizmos and contraptions for their boats that are untried and therefore not trusted and I hate to say it, are made in "Asia" that are cheap, flimsy and sometimes VERY dangerous...

My advice to young sailors who want to sail or build their boats or who might want to add "things" to their boats, do yourself a favour and get equipment that has been around awhile and well tested , take advice from old sailors who have been around twice as long as yourself..... sailing a boat out to sea is not a changing fashion, the sea is a dangerous place waiting for the gullible sailor, unsuspecting and inexperienced...very often the old fashioned way can be the BEST way...