Loss of 'Moonduster'

[sabray]

interesting though that so many boats come equipped with a windlass but no means of securing the chain. kinda like having a door without a knob.

[captainKJ]

If you read my post it says with a cats claw,,, these are devices built in front of the winches to lock the chain,,,,,,,,OR possible a small second chain attached to a cleat or other fixed device,, EVERY cats claw that I have seen was separate from the windless

I would never just leave a chain attached to a windless WITHOUT another locking device

My post also says
anchor windlass have a way of letting the chain out when 2 much of a load is put on them

the ONLY boats I know that do not have a cats claw on them are the SMALL pleasure boats with a cheap windless that is usually worthless and most likely has a hard time pulling up the anchor

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by Seahunter

CaptainKJ, if you want to see your lock and winch go overboard, do that; cleats are stronger. Almost every owners manual for windlasses has a major warning and precaution, NOT to use the windlass as a tie-off point.
These quotes are directly copied from owners manuals.
Lofrans windlasses: "This product is not designed as a strong point to fasten your anchor rode. Fast the anchor rode to a strong point such as mooring cleat or similar."
Maxwell windlasses: "NEVER use the windlass or chainstopper as a mooring point."
Lewmar windlasses: " If using a rope / chain rode then the rope should be tied off to a cleat or suitable strong point."
All manufacturers recommend snubbers for all chain setups, but should be attached to a Sampson post or suitable cleat.
My question would be: If the manufactures don't think their winches are strong enough to tie off to, why do you?

I have yet to see an anchor windlass from the smallest boat to the largest bulk carrier that has provisions to lock of the chain, it is always a seperately engineered locking point, and i don't think anyone here has suggested the load can be left on the windlass....

[captainKJ]

that is correct island hopper,, I do not think anyone suggested it either,,,

I think seahunter read my post to fast so I typed the next one slower for him

[Seahunter]

Originally Posted by captainKJ

If you read my post it says with a cats claw,,, these are devices built in front of the winches to lock the chain,,,,,,,,OR possible a small second chain attached to a cleat or other fixed device,, EVERY cats claw that I have seen was separate from the windless

I would never just leave a chain attached to a windless WITHOUT another locking device

My post also says
anchor windlass have a way of letting the chain out when 2 much of a load is put on them

the ONLY boats I know that do not have a cats claw on them are the SMALL pleasure boats with a cheap windless that is usually worthless and most likely has a hard time pulling up the anchor

If we're going to talk about anchoring freighters, we're in the wrong forum.
There's no doubt that devil's claws (cat's claws) are used on heavy commercial boats, because of the weight of the anchor chain, but on a sailboat or power cruiser; even 1-1/2 inch chain isn't unmanageable. As for, "these are devices built in front of the winches to lock the chain" I don't know of any windlasses made for recreational use that has a built-in devil's claw.
A high quality galvanized shackle will do the same thing as a devil's claw to add a snubber or rope to the anchor rode; either way as long as the load isn't on the windlass (as per the owners' manuals, whether it's locked or unlocked). The only "recreational" windlass I know of that has the feature of "letting out the chain" is Lighthouse; the 1501 has the ability to manually dead pull 10500lbs.
As a matter of fact, I did read your previous post; "always" is pretty finite and doesn't belong on the water.

[IslandHopper]

These are the sort of devices (taken from previous post's) i am talking about, in fact the first two pic's are very similar to how we had ours set up...


These have absolutely nothing to do with the windlass, they are a completely separate component....

[Seahunter]

IslandHopper I see no issue with your set-up. The chain stopper is facing the right way etc. By the way I'm not advocating against using a chain stopper, as this is the only way most windlasses have to prevent the chain locker from emptying out. What I am saying is that even though the manufacturers say that they have a 3-5000 lb holding capacity (depending on model), I wouldn't depend on these products to hold my boat. They're okay for a picnic hook, but chain sag will disappear quickly in a largish swell and the boat could lift the hook off the ground. This is basically the same technique used for breaking loose a fouled anchor. Wind up the windlass til near vertical with the chain stopper engaged and let the tide and or swells break you loose.
To anchor, attach the rope/rode or snubbers in front of the stopper and then tie off to the cleats (I see your boat is designed for a bridle), then snug it all up with your engine.

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by IslandHopper

My heavy weather setup on our previous 40ft steel Spray

1. My chain was always resting on the windlass.
2. My chain was always locked of.
3. There was no rope whatsoever in the setup.
4. I always used the maximum amount of chain available. (we had 350ft + 150ft)
5. I always used a heavy kellet setup. (home made with a plow disk and York Gym weights)

All the above equipment was oversize to the point of overkill in some instances, this worked for us in 40 knots gusting to 60+ knots on a number of occasions...

The above is the setup we had, the chain stopper was not an of the shelf item but one fabricated in a friends engineering shop (along with the kellet). The one in the photos i refered to is similar in layout only to ours...

When we first bought the boat the first thing i did was remove the existing windlass, for me it was way to smalll, the next thing was to have a doubler large enough to take the windlass and chain stopper welded to the deck and fit the new larger windlass, then the chain stopper was welded forward of it....when using the kellet we never had the anchor pull out or felt any serious shock loads....

I dont have the figures as the boat was sold nearly five years ago, but it was engineered to overkill, and thats when i sleep the soundest....

[captainKJ]

but it was engineered to overkill, and thats when i sleep the soundest....

that is the way it should be,,,,, i had a 27 foot stiletto catamaran that I took to the bahamas for 6 months,,,, the original owner had a 12 pound anchor on it,,, first thing I did was buy a 22 pound anchor,,, 50 feet of chain and 150 feet of rope,,,,,, was anchored in 12 feet of water in 60 knots of wind for 3 days and did not drag at all,,,,, sound sleeping it was,,, a little rocky with the waves but all were on the bow,,, nothing like oversized equipment,,, the stiletto weighed in at 1300 pounds if that,,, had only a 9 inch draft,,,, very light and fast,,,,,that anchor took a little work to get out but well worth the effort

[Extemporaneous]

What a very sad story.
I wonder??? if some of the suggestions in this thread could have helped?
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...hor-32665.html

Best of luck to all with their different techniques.
Extemp.

[Eleven]

I know every time I go out I risk losing the boat. My heart goes out to them both.
With hindsight and all the reading I've done:-
A second anchor, on rope, deployed would alert to dragging.
A third anchor, lightest, looped to the main anchor chain and let down to just rest plus a bit on the sea bed would keep the main anchor in a level pull, and soften the ride considerably. My Theory. Yes, I do have three anchors.
A sea brake, not a full sea anchor, streamed behind will help to keep the bows pointed forwards and steady the pull on the anchor chain, avoiding snatching etc.
And as the wind got more severe I'd have lashed each of us to the liferaft. On a weighted mono it can sink very quickly, by a collision with another vessel, storm debris, whatever.
But in the circumstance he was in he did everything he could and maybe other things would have worked, but none of them came with a guarantee. Like the weather forecast!
Thank you for being so frank with you tale, so many sea miles in your pride and joy. And to lose any boat is a very personal thing. I feel for you.

[Solitude]

Tragic.

[Scare_Rab]

seem to recall reading a page about "Jordan series drougues"...
suggesting that, for surviving hurricane/cyclonic/typhoon/storms at anchor: then anchoring 'from the stern' - using a bridle meant the vessel was aerodynamically stable, no veering, no shock loads:

Waddya reckon?

[bewitched]

Originally Posted by Scare_Rab

seem to recall reading a page about "Jordan series drougues"...
suggesting that, for surviving hurricane/cyclonic/typhoon/storms at anchor: then anchoring 'from the stern' - using a bridle meant the vessel was aerodynamically stable, no veering, no shock loads:

Waddya reckon?

Not for multihulls - they are fairly stable in such conditions (they don't veer). Anchoring astern would add a significant windload.

For monohulls, I think anchoring the boat from astern would perhaps cause less veering as it would weathercock to some degree, but I don't think it would eliminate veering at all - so there still would be the snatch at the end of the veer - not as significant and perhaps not as frequent.

However, you would add a significant wind loading (transom, companionway, and in some cases a permanent dodger). You would also add a significant wave loading (depending on fetch).

I think overall you would add more load to the boat if you anchored astern

[MarkJ]

I just found this thread.
Wayne is a mate and so glad he is OK.

From the mob we anchored with in Va'vau, Tonga in September 2008 we know of 3 that have sunk, Moonduster, Airwego, and Elusive.

There would have been about 80 to 100 boats there. So thats 3% sunk in 12 months.

Plus 22 shops in Neafu burned down when some kids tried to smoke out some honey bees...

The Pacific is an interesting area. I wouldn't be underestimating it.

Probably important to never underestimate anywhere.




Mark