Looking For Ideas - May Give Up

[Westcliffe01]

Houston based, yes. But Enron famously manipulated the generation capacity in California leading to huge surges in the cost of electricity in the state.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...me9-story.html

Originally Posted by Capt Clark

No, it was also a Texas fiasco.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

Do you remember what just happened in Texas a few months ago ? You want to suggest the US grid is going to withstand the addition of hundreds of thousands of new electric vehicles without a problem ?

Ummm... the "Texas problem" was that the 'Texas grid' was completely disconnected from the US grid, largely for political reasons, and to avoid the texas grid having to pay into the main US grid.


So when it began to fall over in the white-out storm, there was no way to recover it, as it was not connected to the main grid.


Nothing to do with electric vehicles.


But having said that, most consumers, and future owners of EVs, will soon realise it makes sense to have solar PV on their homes so as to get back some revenue (from generation) to offset what they will be using (to power their homes and cars) and this growth in solar will balance their additional usage requirements. In many cases it will probably exceed it.



Texas is generally a pretty sunny place, and so will no doubt end up a nett exporter of solar generation, but may require some night time storage or hydro.


It will all balance out. As additional capacity is found to be required, grid managment authorities will 'release' that cpacity potential to bids from potential suppliers, who will compete to supply that capacity.


The market will provide. It's the nature of the beast.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Honestly, I worry a bit about stuff like that with the boat too. But I figure that any level of change that would turn most of our boats into worthless junk isn't going to happen suddenly and without warning. So there would be time to plan, figure out the impacts, what changes might avoid the problem, etc.

This. There’s a ton of RVs/trucks/boats/etc. out there and realistically no good non-fossil-fuel alternatives right now. Just economically that stuff can’t just stop existing.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I guess we are currently incompatible with the way we want to live. But at the same time we don’t want to lose each other. She understands my need to NOT have a routine and completely stationary life and I understand her need for the same at this point in her life. She’s never had it.

She may come around to find a ho hum stationary life is boring, then again she may end up enjoying that life. I don’t know what the outcome will be. So I have to make a choice for myself and myself only. With zero data on what the future will hold.

My SO and I are somewhat like this and it’s currently working out pretty well for us where when I get tired of moving around and living in a postage-stamp-sized-space I hang out at home by myself for a bit and he does the RV thing by himself or with our teenager if it’s our time with him. Or sometimes kiddo wants to be at home too so stays with me. The one thing is he tries not to go anywhere too super interesting without me - so he’ll try to mostly do exploring in areas we’ve been to rather than setting off for a whole new bit of the country? Like he’s not going to go to the Grand Canyon on his own, but he’ll explore stuff like smaller parks and hiking trails and so on along routes we’ve done together.

We’re also working on getting the RV more customized for us in terms of how it functions and how it looks, and I’m finding the more we personalize it the more ‘at home’ I feel in it, which helps too. I think figuring out where we can put a decent sized reliable freezer is going to help a lot for me because it will make cooking much easier, and cooking is something I do for fun so when it’s annoying or difficult I feel less relaxed.

I just want to add - helping her figure out how to exist independently is absolutely a fantastic thing to do, even if it’s especially difficult right now because of Covid. My mom was never comfortable living on her own and it caused her a lot of stress over her life.

[Westcliffe01]

The point is that the US grid is weak and vulnerable. You suggest using solar to charge your car. Is your car parked at home all day, or is it parked in an employers parking lot ? All that solar is not going to do much use when it is being generated in one place and the vehicle is in another.



So maybe you set up net metering. Most states never allow you to make a penny. You can offset your own power consumption, but after that you are giving the utility energy for free. Do a bit of investigation, I know for sure that is the case in Michigan and most other midwestern states for sure. That is if course if you are even allowed to put solar panels on your property in the first place. I have come across several zoning ordinances in small towns around me where it is not permissible to see solar panels from the property boundaries. Several developments I investigated in Colorado Springs also prohibited solar arrays in their covenants. The realtor I was speaking to referred to them as "space ships". There is a positive attitude.... A grid tied solar system. The panels put power into the grid during the day and you take it back out at night when you get home. Maybe this will work or it will not. If a tree falls on the utility line, you will be SOL as before. No power at your house without the grid.



Oh, you are going to add some big lithium batteries to your house ? Good luck with that, its very expensive, your government licensed installer will charge you as much in labor as what the equipment costs. Your insurance cost will go up because of the additional fire hazard. Death by a thousand cuts. Very little of any of this has to do with the market, it has mostly to do with a bunch of do gooders trying to micromanage our every move....

Originally Posted by Buzzman

Ummm... the "Texas problem" was that the 'Texas grid' was completely disconnected from the US grid, largely for political reasons, and to avoid the texas grid having to pay into the main US grid.


So when it began to fall over in the white-out storm, there was no way to recover it, as it was not connected to the main grid.


Nothing to do with electric vehicles.


But having said that, most consumers, and future owners of EVs, will soon realise it makes sense to have solar PV on their homes so as to get back some revenue (from generation) to offset what they will be using (to power their homes and cars) and this growth in solar will balance their additional usage requirements. In many cases it will probably exceed it.



Texas is generally a pretty sunny place, and so will no doubt end up a nett exporter of solar generation, but may require some night time storage or hydro.


It will all balance out. As additional capacity is found to be required, grid managment authorities will 'release' that cpacity potential to bids from potential suppliers, who will compete to supply that capacity.


The market will provide. It's the nature of the beast.

[Chotu]

This is FANTASTIC input and non-arm chair stuff. So happy to hear the experience you had doing this was positive.

We both feel strongly it will be a positive experience as well. Thank you very much for sharing.

Note: I want the freezer as much as you do. It’s incredibly hard to right-size an RV. I’m wanting a bigger one, but I’m faced with the reality constantly that a truck camper (tipping my hat to Sand Crab) is the right size since it fits everywhere. BUT... I want to provision with a real freezer and have a dishwasher too.

Originally Posted by PirateFoxy

My SO and I are somewhat like this and it’s currently working out pretty well for us where when I get tired of moving around and living in a postage-stamp-sized-space I hang out at home by myself for a bit and he does the RV thing by himself or with our teenager if it’s our time with him. Or sometimes kiddo wants to be at home too so stays with me. The one thing is he tries not to go anywhere too super interesting without me - so he’ll try to mostly do exploring in areas we’ve been to rather than setting off for a whole new bit of the country? Like he’s not going to go to the Grand Canyon on his own, but he’ll explore stuff like smaller parks and hiking trails and so on along routes we’ve done together.

We’re also working on getting the RV more customized for us in terms of how it functions and how it looks, and I’m finding the more we personalize it the more ‘at home’ I feel in it, which helps too. I think figuring out where we can put a decent sized reliable freezer is going to help a lot for me because it will make cooking much easier, and cooking is something I do for fun so when it’s annoying or difficult I feel less relaxed.

I just want to add - helping her figure out how to exist independently is absolutely a fantastic thing to do, even if it’s especially difficult right now because of Covid. My mom was never comfortable living on her own and it caused her a lot of stress over her life.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by PirateFoxy

I think figuring out where we can put a decent sized reliable freezer is going to help a lot for me because it will make cooking much easier, and cooking is something I do for fun so when it’s annoying or difficult I feel less relaxed.

A workable option for this is a portable automotive type chest fridge/freezer. Several of the better brands, like Engel, Waeco, can freeze down to -18C, or close to it, and -10C is more than enough to keep food safely frozen.

While some of these units are fairly tall, others are lower in profile and could potentially go in the bottom of a cupboard on a sliding base - which are also available from 4x4 accessories suppliers, as this is most often how they are mounted in 4x4s, to slide out from the rear door of a 4x4 wagon.


'Wild We Roam' on YT added a *large* two-compartment combo fridge/freezer in the salon of their new boat recently, simply replacing a bench seat with the fridge.


Obviously, a smaller unit would fit more readily into a cupboard, or *underneath* a seat or bed. I suggest this one just so you can see how relatively easy it was for them to do as total amateurs.


I have a Bushman 35L single compartment fridge/freezer unit that is lower than the Engel et al, and would probably fit under a seat, but it might be easier to look for a taller, narrower unit that could go behind an existing outward opening cupboard door.


You could then build a box to contain it, attach the box to a slide inside the base of the cupboard, then attach the door face to the front of the box, so as the 'cupboard' opens, the fridge comes out with it.

I recently saw a 'shop branded' 20L unit that was designed to fit in between the seats of a vehicle for sale by Kings in Oz, but probably available elsewhere, that advertised it could get down to -18C.


Which option works best for you will be determined by how much you need to keep in it and what size containers you need to use in it.


Another option might be the under-bench fridge/freezer drawer units made by some domestic fridge makers for high-end galley kitchens. Will NOT be cheap,\but might be another alternative worth looking at, especially for an RV that has a decent sizzed inverter and battery pack, to run the freezer when off the mains.


You mau find that the size of the battery pack is, in fact, the principle limiting factor. As in, where to stow the batteries to provide enough power to run a freezer off grid.


Bush cabin and off-grid forums and YT channels might also be useful sources of info, especially the how to stuff.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Westcliffe01

The point is that the US grid is weak and vulnerable. You suggest using solar to charge your car. Is your car parked at home all day, or is it parked in an employers parking lot ? All that solar is not going to do much use when it is being generated in one place and the vehicle is in another.

Well, actually, what is happening already is that aggregators are buying power you produce at home, or trading with you so you can draw down from them (via the grid) even if you don't have a house battery, though this is the sensible way to do it.
Also, employees will soon be lobbying their employers - and smart employers will get on this quickly so as to provide an additional benefit, like insurance, to help retain workers - of 'green power' available at workplace to recharge employee vehicles. Costs the employer bugger all, as whatever power goes into your car you pay for.
Technology to do this is already available, just as yet, not many employers are offering it. Once EVs become more widely used, this WILL change.

So maybe you set up net metering. Most states never allow you to make a penny. You can offset your own power consumption, but after that you are giving the utility energy for free.

Not in this country (Australia). Retailers are obliged to pay exporters for the power they export. At present, due to grid limitations mostly, they ARE allowed to limit the amount they will accept in terms of the grid viability (so even if you have a 10kW PV array, you might be limited to a max of 5kW per day export) but this is changing as the grid absorbs more and more rooftop PV, and the Oz national regulator has recently ruled that this MUST change, as otherwise potential 'carbon free' generation is going to waste - and the ultimate end-goal is 'carbon-free' so it's counter-productive not to accept whatever people can generate. But of course, some smart-arse would then install a 50kW system on their factory roof, and the retailer would (potentially) be obliged to upgrade the grid nearby JUST to suit one greedy (or very green) exporter.
So, obviously there do have to be limits in the early stages of grid transition. Bottom line for the grid as a whole is that citizens are funding the new generation capacity, not the grid or the power retailers, so it makes no sense to limit this as it is much more cost-efffective for the grid (overall) to have the citizens generate the power, rather than having to spend billions on new generator infrastructure.

Colorado Springs also prohibited solar arrays in their covenants. The realtor I was speaking to referred to them as "space ships".

Increasingly this will change, as citizens demand this be supplied as part of future developments. At present, the cost of the wires and infrastructure in a development falls on the developer "up front" so they see that as a "cost" to them and a negative incentive to develop. We have the same issue here, but local authorities and the national Building Code require it, so the cost of the underground infrastructure gets passed on to the buyer. Though this still limits the developer's "margin" as there is a 'top price' beyond which ordinary folks can't afford a house due to loan and repayment constraints.
Poor developers. Having to give up some of their margin. My heart bleeds. Not.

There is a positive attitude.... A grid tied solar system. The panels put power into the grid during the day and you take it back out at night when you get home. Maybe this will work or it will not. If a tree falls on the utility line, you will be SOL as before. No power at your house without the grid.

And this would be the same whether or not you had a solar PV array or not, as now. If a wire gets broken, power goes off. The REAL issue is getting authorities to legislate to force the grid to underground all the cabling, as this is REALLY why wires get broken. Accidents to poles, branches falling, snow build-up...etc etc. If wires were underground the number of incidents that could break those cables then is MUCH lessened. Like earthquakes, or serious flood damage. Much rarer than branches falling on lines.
The answer is, of course, to get a 'hybrid' inverter when you get the array installed, and that allows/enables you to add a battery to it later. Just be sure that the inverter has an 'islanding' function, so that if the grid goes down, it automatically shuts off 'export' and switches to the battery for your needs.
The reason why PV fitted homes go down when a branch cuts the grid is because your 'grid-tie' inverter can otherwise still send power to the grid from the PV and electrocute a linesman. So if the grid 'fails' your inverter shuts down automatically, to protect the linesman trying to repair the grid. This makes sense. We need the linesman!
If you have an 'islanding inverter' this function enables your PC array and house (behind the inverter) to keep functioning, while also preventing power exports to the damaged grid, thus protecting the linesmen. Of course, if it's night time, and you have no battery, you are still buggered - just as you would have been without the solar array.


Ideally, a hybrid grid-tie inverter and a battery bank gives you (and the rest of us) the most optimal solution.

You have power ALL the time, even if the grid goes out, and when it's all hunky dory, the REST of us benefit from the exports of your excess. And you WILL have an excess!!


The average Australian home uses around 17kWh of energy per day. Even a tiny 2kW PV array can generate more than this on a good day, so the 'average' 6kW array can generate around 24kWh per day, every day (averaged out over the year) at my latitude of 32degS. So equivalent to Los Angeles latitude in the USA. Higher latitudes, closer to poles, less per day, but there is a formula to calculate based on insolation rates and hours per day average. Google it for your area.

Oh, you are going to add some big lithium batteries to your house ? Good luck with that, its very expensive, your government licensed installer will charge you as much in labor as what the equipment costs.

Not true. Cost per watt of batteries is falling. In Oz, you pay the install cost as part of the 'deal', unless there are additional issues (like a two-storey house, difficult access etc). Yes, batteries are still expensive compared to the cost of power from the grid. but if the grid goes down and you have no power? In winter, as in the Texas debacle...??? What price sanity, safety and life...??? Only individual citizens can decide that.

Your insurance cost will go up because of the additional fire hazard. Death by a thousand cuts.

Not true. Especially if you opt for LiFePO4 battery chemistry, which does not suffer from runaway thermal events as do other lithium chemistries. But the other lithium chemistries are currently cheaper per watt....

Very little of any of this has to do with the market, it has mostly to do with a bunch of do gooders trying to micromanage our every move....

Also untrue. The 'market' to which you refer can only be the 'electricity market' which, if left to itself, would still be belching CO2 into the atmosphere long after the last human has gasped their last breath.

That's the nature of 'unregulated' markets.
So, we accept there needs to be regulation of markets to prevent adverse outcomes.

For example. Not adding brakes to automobiles would save manufacturers in the 'auto market' $300 per car. That's a lot of extra profit if you are making thousands of them. But cars without brakes would have lots of negative outcomes for the citizenry, so we ask our govt to regulate that the auto makers MUST fit brakes to their products.

This is why it's called a 'regulated market'.
All makers have to fit brakes, so it's a 'level playing field' as well.

As to 'do-gooders managing your every move'?? I'm OK with that. As the alternative is 'every man for himself anarchy' I think you'll find that MOST folks are happier with a degree of regulation, much of which is, as you say, driven by people who want the best for us and our society.


Ask yourself: would you rather be remembered as someone who wanted bad things to happen, or someone who wanted good outcomes...???

Think you'll find that limb you're out on is getting mighty thin about now....

[Chotu]

Easy folks. Please don’t get my thread shut down. I was just bringing up a fact. Fact is, there are more and more things going electric and it worries me to be stuck in diesel. However, nothing else is good for traveling except fossil fuels and sailing. That’s it. Not a political debate here. Just trying to make the right decisions in a changing world.

[Buzzman]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Easy folks. Please don’t get my thread shut down. I was just bringing up a fact. Fact is, there are more and more things going electric and it worries me to be stuck in diesel. However, nothing else is good for traveling except fossil fuels and sailing. That’s it. Not a political debate here. Just trying to make the right decisions in a changing world.

It's a very good and valid point to raise - but the usual ninnys braying about the destruction of the known universe as a result are NOT helping the 'debate'.

I've seen some discussions where it was seriously (and well) argued that *most* normal, *average* sailboat owners probably could get by with a small electric motor and battery bank, as they only use their boats occasionally, either for racing or day sailing, and only need the motor to get to and from the dock.

And as they are (again) *mostly* dock queens, rather than on hook, they can easily recharge from the grid between sailing days.

The problem children are the on-hookers and the cruisers....

On-hook you'd need a big area of PV to generate power to recharge a battery bank big enough to rely on as you would a diesel, for cruising.

For example, when Matt and Amy on Florence (Sailing Florence on YT) attempted to set off across the Indian Ocean recently, the wind they'd hoped for died after two days, and they had to motor all the way back to the Mentawis and wait for another 'window' to get far enough south to get to the trades.

Without their diesel (or similar) they would have been stuck drifting, like poor Adrian Hayter, on 'Sheila II' back in the Fities, who drifted around the eastern Indian Ocean for a month, almost dying as a result of 'almost' running out of water.

So the ongoing availability of diesel for sailboats is definitely a 'thing'.

My guess is, when push eventually comes to shove, it will be like the ongoing availability of 'leaded petrol/gasoline' when that was phased out in the Nineties/Noughties. From memory the (eventual) expiry of availability of leaded on forecourts was telegraphed 10-15 years in advance.

At that point in time, we'll need to consider whether our "diesels" can be run on ethanol, or on bio-diesel made from plants or waste oil (both of which are available now in 'limited' supply, but which might be made 'more available' if that's the only 'eco solution' that didn't involve a full repower).

And no doubt there will be 'exceptions' - like for naval vessels, or fishing fleets, no doubt - that would still mean there was some 'limited supply' available in 'most' places.

But 'most places' in developed countries only, or.....????

I'm also guessing that TowBoatUS and similar orgs will have a 'recharger' that can push a bit of charge into a flat battery to get you out of trouble in most coastal situations, same as they can supply diesel now, if that's all you require.

By 2100 though....?????

My crystal ball can see sailing boats still sailing, but what they will be powering themselves with when off the wind is anyone's guess.....

[JPA Cate]

If people want to discuss the electric future, start a new thread in the Covid Containment forum, please. To do it here, constitutes thread hijacking, as well as being outside the issues of cruising and sailing, two rules we all agreed to follow when we joined.

More posts on the subject will be deleted without notification, and penalties may apply on a case by case basis.

[Tetepare]

You have too much drama going on. Dump that which causes you the most drama, simplify your life, and take a breath.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Easy folks. Please don’t get my thread shut down. I was just bringing up a fact. Fact is, there are more and more things going electric and it worries me to be stuck in diesel. However, nothing else is good for traveling except fossil fuels and sailing. That’s it. Not a political debate here. Just trying to make the right decisions in a changing world.

Our next RV is probably going to be a diesel that can run on bio-diesel as that seems to us to be the thing likely to have the longest availability since it’s made from basically waste products. (We’re thinking diesel for other reasons, we just want bio-diesel to be an option if we’re going in that direction anyway.)

That said, I think the current technology for EVs doesn’t support wholesale switching. It simply takes too long to charge even on rapid chargers relative to filling up the gas tank, and the rapid chargers aren’t great on the batteries so you don’t want to be doing that all the time anyway. EVs work fine for stuff like commuting because there’s long periods when it just sits and can charge slowly without disrupting anyone’s plans, but how do you drive across a couple states in good time if you have to stop so long to recharge? And with charging stations just rolling out, there isn’t going to be a ton of redundancy on some routes, so what do you do if you get to your quick recharge stop and the charging station isn’t available for some reason? Etc. There’s a lot of practical stuff to iron out. I think it’ll happen, but likely not within the reasonable lifespan of an RV purchased now - by the time it’s a big issue there’s a good chance you’ll want to change vehicle anyway, I would suspect. So I wouldn’t be worrying about it too much right now.

[PirateFoxy]

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is FANTASTIC input and non-arm chair stuff. So happy to hear the experience you had doing this was positive.

We both feel strongly it will be a positive experience as well. Thank you very much for sharing.

Note: I want the freezer as much as you do. It’s incredibly hard to right-size an RV. I’m wanting a bigger one, but I’m faced with the reality constantly that a truck camper (tipping my hat to Sand Crab) is the right size since it fits everywhere. BUT... I want to provision with a real freezer and have a dishwasher too.

One thing to think about for both of you is just the limits of what you’re comfortable with - like I feel left out if my SO goes somewhere without me, she may not. And my SO doesn’t mind limiting his adventures to places where I won’t feel left out - but for some people that might be too much of a limit? So you have to find the compromise that’ll work for both of you with those sorts of issues, and of course communicate as things go so you can make adjustments as needed.

We’re currently trying to figure out if we can fit a regular domestic chest freezer into a corner of the bedroom. It’s a strange place for one but it’s that or give up storage space (never! ) and the domestic models are 1) much much much cheaper than portable options and 2) usually WAAAAAY better on power usage, and we want the freezer to be able to run off battery reliably. (My SO is also improving the situation re: batteries, that’s his area of geekery.) Long term would be something in one of the outside storage compartments possibly or built in under the sofa or dinette but this would get us the space and reliability faster for now.

Our dishwasher plan is a drawer unit under the sink. But again expensive, so not an immediate improvement we’re going to do. It should work though, a lot of higher end class As have them. For the moment it’s hand washing and we also have a plastic crate where we collect rinsed-but-dirty stuff when we’ll be home soon. Crate comes to the house and stuff goes in the dishwasher at home, then the crate gets wiped out and clean stuff goes back in to go back to the RV. It’s mostly just plastics that end up getting the dishwasher trip - I find it really hard to get them feeling properly clean when hand washing and trying to be mindful of water usage. Easier to just run them home when they’re clean-ish.

[JPA Cate]

For dishes, and glasses, we don't like plastic, although we have a few plastic bowls and glasses. Mostly, we use glass glasses, stoneware plates, bowls, cups, saucers, or Corelle. We just learned how to store them. Not rocket science. Easy to wash. I am the dishwasher, salad maker, and baker, as Jim does most of the cooking.

I guess I'll say that the labor is a small cost to pay for freedom, that omitting luxuries will lead to freedom sooner....and that everyone gets to make their own choices. Only note, we have had our freedom already now for over 30 yrs. I wrote that from looking back a loooong way.

Ann