Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Defarm

A designated anchorage doesn’t require lights for anchored vessels.

That's only the case in a special anchorage and in the US. Just because it's marked on the chart as an anchorage doesn't mean it's a special anchorage. And even then, just because you're legally exempt from showing lights doesn't mean you should take advantage of that. As far as I'm concerned, even in a special anchorage or a mooring field, it's damn stupid to have no lights on at night.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

That's only the case in a special anchorage and in the US. Just because it's marked on the chart as an anchorage doesn't mean it's a special anchorage. And even then, just because you're legally exempt from showing lights doesn't mean you should take advantage of that. As far as I'm concerned, even in a special anchorage or a mooring field, it's damn stupid to have no lights on at night.

I agree, and not all mooring fields are located in special anchorages, so anchor lights can be required.

[lateral]

I must admit it require full alertness coming in against backdrop of city lights. Had a recent one of having to vacate a grid at 12am with a 5min window because of deep keel and tide race. Black as ace of spades. Then negotiate a mooring field with all manner of lights. I had a cobber on the bow, but was still confusing. We motored. Sailing thru this field would be dumb.
Bit of entertainment for you Chotu!

On type of light, I’ve been razzed about leaving my spreader blue floods on in addition to relatively nondescript anchor light when concerned about being seen. Sure identifies the hazard better. Don’t care so much for the rules, more on the object of them.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by lateral

On type of light, I’ve been razzed about leaving my spreader blue floods on in addition to relatively nondescript anchor light when concerned about being seen. Sure identifies the hazard better. Don’t care so much for the rules, more on the object of them.

I think you are doing the right thing morally and also legally.

“(c) A vessel at anchor may , and a vessel of 100 meters and more in length shall, also use the available working or equivalent lights to illuminate her decks.”

[Goodxcharly]

Probably going to fast for the conditions and his experience. No amount of lights would of helped unles the other party took notice and shined a spot light in his windshield/ dodger window. Which works.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by smj

I claimed rule 7 didn’t stipulate that one must transmit a class b AIS at anchor if one owns one.

Whatever -

Originally Posted by smj

It’s (rule 7) under the steering and sailing rules,something not done while anchored?

Originally Posted by smj

And the article stated this:

However, there are no direct or clear rules in the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended (COLREGs) regarding the obligations of anchored vessels to avoid collision.

Remarkable how you focused on one sentence in the introduction, and missed the entire point of the article - that even without explicit wording in Colregs, case law has clearly shown the obligations stated in Colregs apply to anchored vessels.

I'll give you points for perseverance, but it's time to face facts.

You remind me of the Black Knight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs

[smj]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Whatever -









Remarkable how you focused on one sentence in the introduction, and missed the entire point of the article - that even without explicit wording in Colregs, case law has clearly shown the obligations stated in Colregs apply to anchored vessels.



I'll give you points for perseverance, but it's time to face facts.



You remind me of the Black Knight:

My argument all along has been that Colregs deals with vessels underway not at anchor. This article clearly states when a vessel at anchor becomes a vessel underway, and the article also states the responsibilities an anchored vessel has while anchoring and after anchoring. But here’s the quote.

[Collision between a vessel at anchor and a vessel underway is bound to occur from time to time during the navigation and operation process. However, there are no direct or clear rules in the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended (COLREGs) regarding the obligations of anchored vessels to avoid collision.]
Colregs are full of direct rules regarding obligations of vessels underway to avoid collision.........but no direct rules for anchored vessels.
Bout sums it up?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by smj

My argument all along has been that Colregs deals with vessels underway not at anchor. This article clearly states when a vessel at anchor becomes a vessel underway, and the article also states the responsibilities an anchored vessel has while anchoring and after anchoring. But here’s the quote.

[Collision between a vessel at anchor and a vessel underway is bound to occur from time to time during the navigation and operation process. However, there are no direct or clear rules in the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended (COLREGs) regarding the obligations of anchored vessels to avoid collision.]
Colregs are full of direct rules regarding obligations of vessels underway to avoid collision.........but no direct rules for anchored vessels.
Bout sums it up?

No, not correct.

Rule 1 Application: “These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.” Notice the “all”? And Rule 4 Application for rules 5-10 only mentions visibility. There is no exemption for vessels not underway.

Rule 5 Look-out: “Look-out “Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.” Notice the “every vessel”?

Rule 7 Risk of Collision a) “Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.” Notice the “every vessel”?

It is correct that Rules 12-19, and explicitly Rule 18 Responsibilities between vessels, do not refer to vessels not underway. That still doesn’t absolve an anchored boat from not following rules 2-10.

AIS isn’t mentioned at all but can be construed as one of a number of electronic aids for lookout and collision avoidance falling under “all available means”. As such, it is useful to transmit AIS as an additional means of making your vessel visible to others. It is certainly not required.

[smj]

Originally Posted by fxykty

No, not correct.

Rule 1 Application: “These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.” Notice the “all”? And Rule 4 Application for rules 5-10 only mentions visibility. There is no exemption for vessels not underway.

Rule 5 Look-out: “Look-out “Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.” Notice the “every vessel”?

Rule 7 Risk of Collision a) “Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.” Notice the “every vessel”?

It is correct that Rules 12-19, and explicitly Rule 18 Responsibilities between vessels, do not refer to vessels not underway. That still doesn’t absolve an anchored boat from not following rules 2-10.

AIS isn’t mentioned at all but can be construed as one of a number of electronic aids for lookout and collision avoidance falling under “all available means”. As such, it is useful to transmit AIS as an additional means of making your vessel visible to others. It is certainly not required.

[Collision between a vessel at anchor and a vessel underway is bound to occur from time to time during the navigation and operation process. However, there are no direct or clear rules in the International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, as amended (COLREGs) regarding the obligations of anchored vessels to avoid collision.]
No direct or clear rules, so foggy, uninterpretable, absolutely useless rules for anchored boats?
Interpret the rules how you wish but there are many cases that would be impossible to adhere to and very few to none that would make any sense for an anchored recreational vessel.

[smj]

Another opinion.

http://cruising.coastalboating.net/S...S/COLREGS.html
And another quote from the article.
[ Anchored vessels are not underway and therefore are not included in the rules, although there are rules that pertain to marking anchored vessels so that vessels underway can determine that they are anchored. ]

[Chotu]

I’m just glad boats (and anchoring) aren’t this complicated in real life.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by smj

Another opinion.

When is a sailboat not a sailboat? International Regulations for Avoiding Collisions at Sea or COLREGS for dummies. Part 1.

Jeezus, where did you find that dreck? The author constantly refers to "right of way", so clearly can be ignored as having no clue about Colregs. Doesn't know that towing does not equate with RAM. Absolute drivel.

When you're in over your head, stop shovelling.

Yeah yeah, I know - it's just a flesh wound.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Jeezus, where did you find that dreck? The author constantly refers to "right of way", so clearly can be ignored as having no clue about Colregs. Doesn't know that towing does not equate with RAM. Absolute drivel.



When you're in over your head, stop shovelling.



Yeah yeah, I know - it's just a flesh wound.

Enjoy your 24hour 7 days a week anchor watches!
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

[rslifkin]

Realistically, when it comes to keeping anchor watches, etc. on a recreational boat, outside of certain situations (bad weather or being anchored in a bad location due to a mechanical failure, etc.), it's rarely done. And outside of those situations, it's rare for there to be any kind of incident where the anchored boat could have done anything to help the situation.

Because of that, it rarely becomes a problem. If someone hits one of us at anchor but it's determined that we couldn't reasonably have done anything to change the situation, we wouldn't be given fault. But at the same time, if a boat was having control problems coming into an anchorage at night, made a VHF call about it, and then hit one of us, we could be found at fault for not hearing the VHF call and attempting to do something (because everyone on board was sleeping). Fortunately, that's a rare enough situation that it's not worth worrying much about.

I treat it as doing what's reasonable at anchor. So if we're awake, I keep the VHFs on (and maybe with the squelch turned way up if there's a lot of chatter so I only hear stuff that's really close). And even if we're in the cabin, we have decent outward visibility (except straight forward or aft) to have an idea of what's going on around us. I wouldn't sit at the helm keeping a 360* watch with radar on outside of really bad weather. But I would consider leaving AIS transmitting as one of the easy-button things that takes basically no effort from me and is at minimum not going to worsen a situation, but has a small chance of improving one. Thinking about it, we have cameras covering most of the outside of the boat, so if I hear something while laying in bed, I can always reach over to my phone and see what's out there.

There are certain rules that are hard to follow to the letter as recreational boats with a limited crew without making major sacrifices (such as not both going ashore at the same time, hardly seeing each other due to alternating watch schedules, etc.). But we should all do what we can to follow the intent of the rules (and guidelines) and use our best judgement on what the risk is for the parts that may be impractical to follow perfectly.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Realistically, when it comes to keeping anchor watches, etc. on a recreational boat, outside of certain situations (bad weather or being anchored in a bad location due to a mechanical failure, etc.), it's rarely done. ...
There are certain rules that are hard to follow to the letter as recreational boats with a limited crew without making major sacrifices (such as not both going ashore at the same time, hardly seeing each other due to alternating watch schedules, etc.). But we should all do what we can to follow the intent of the rules (and guidelines) and use our best judgement on what the risk is for the parts that may be impractical to follow perfectly.

Absolutely agree with everything you said! Spot on!