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Old 09-02-2023, 15:07   #181
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
Agreed. I can't really think of any marine navigation tools (lights, radar, AIS, etc.) that entirely replaces any other tool (including your eyes). Each tool just provides information that you may or may not have had without it depending on the current situation. In perfect weather, radar, AIS, etc. will mostly tell you the same thing your eyes can see, just with a few extras like knowing a boat name further off or being able to determine how fast a boat is moving. But as conditions degrade, they're more likely to tell you something your eyes haven't picked up on yet.



Boaters absolutely should be taught to use their eyes first and then reference the other tools for additional information.


Absolutely agree, yet it seems there’s a new age of boaters that solely rely on the little screen instead of their surroundings, and that’s where I have a problem with AIS being more of a distraction at anchor than a good navigational tool.
If there are 20 boats in an anchorage and 7 have their AIS turned on, then their signal to me is useless and a distraction to those solely relying on their screens. A false sense of security.
If AIS were mandatory and all anchored vessels had to legally display like anchor lights, then AIS may be a worthwhile tool at anchor, but until then it’s my opinion it’s more of a distraction for a certain group of people.
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:11   #182
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Absolutely agree, yet it seems there’s a new age of boaters that solely rely on the little screen instead of their surroundings, and that’s where I have a problem with AIS being more of a distraction at anchor than a good navigational tool.
If there are 20 boats in an anchorage and 7 have their AIS turned on, then their signal to me is useless and a distraction to those solely relying on their screens. A false sense of security.
If AIS were mandatory and all anchored vessels had to legally display like anchor lights, then AIS may be a worthwhile tool at anchor, but until then it’s my opinion it’s more of a distraction for a certain group of people.

From what I've seen of that group, they'll unfortunately manage to be distracted and stupid no matter what the rest of us do. So I don't think it's worth compromising anything for the rest of us in hopes that it'll make the idiots slightly less dumb.
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:16   #183
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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From what I've seen of that group, they'll unfortunately manage to be distracted and stupid no matter what the rest of us do. So I don't think it's worth compromising anything for the rest of us in hopes that it'll make the idiots slightly less dumb.


So back to the topic of this thread, if only the anchored ferrocement boat would have had their AIS turned on!
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:22   #184
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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So back to the topic of this thread, if only the anchored ferrocement boat would have had their AIS turned on!

I'm pretty sure about the only thing that would have fixed that situation was either a person with a spotlight, or a robotic arm to reach out and smack the skipper of the other boat.
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:24   #185
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
I'm pretty sure about the only thing that would have fixed that situation was either a person with a spotlight, or a robotic arm to reach out and smack the skipper of the other boat.


Yeah, sounded like a case of impaired boating to me, that could be alcohol or a mental impairment!
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:27   #186
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

A few comments :

Having a hundred boats in an anchorage all transmitting on AIS is going to create a cluttered screen.

It would be handy to have a normal and low powered mode for the AIS for those times when it was on at anchor.

A standby mode wherein the AIS only transmitted if the boat started moving outside its moored or anchored scope might prove handy.
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:28   #187
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

When someone debates what may or should, I am reminded of Abraham Lincoln's wise words towards self-regulation.
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Old 09-02-2023, 15:59   #188
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Thanks, and I agree. But I do believe rule 7a is applicable when 2 boats are moving, nothing to do with anchored vessels.
Where in the Rule book does it say that Rule 7 is applicable to moving vessels, but not anchored ones?
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Old 09-02-2023, 16:24   #189
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Originally Posted by RaymondR View Post
A few comments :

Having a hundred boats in an anchorage all transmitting on AIS is going to create a cluttered screen.

It would be handy to have a normal and low powered mode for the AIS for those times when it was on at anchor.

A standby mode wherein the AIS only transmitted if the boat started moving outside its moored or anchored scope might prove handy.



This is like saying that too many rocks in an anchorage might clutter your chart plotter. Ummm....


Standby would defeat the point. You run AIS so people know where you are.



If stuff is getting too "cluttered", change your zoom, or change your filtering on your chart plotter.
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Old 09-02-2023, 16:55   #190
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Where in the Rule book does it say that Rule 7 is applicable to moving vessels, but not anchored ones?
Rule 7 is of Part B, unless specifically stating otherwise, the rules apply to EVERY VESSEL AT ALL TIMES. FYI: Anchored boats also are required to avoid collisions / allisions Rule 8, and to keep lookout, Rule 5. An anchored vessel is not a bump on a log, it is required to do its part to maneuver out of the way and to aid in avoiding collisions, by for example signaling a boat that is a hazard of running into it.

PART B - STEERING AND SAILING RULES

I - Conduct of Vessels in Any Condition of Visibility.


Rule 4 - Application
Rules 4-10 apply in any condition of visibility.

Rule 5 - Lookout
Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing as well as by all available means appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and conditions so as to make a full appraisal of the situation and of the risk of collision.

Rule 6 - Safe Speed
Every vessel shall at all times proceed at a safe speed so that she can take proper and effective action to avoid collision and be stopped within a distance appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions. In determining a safe speed the following factors shall be among those taken into account:

(a) By all vessels:
(i) The state of visibility;
(ii) The traffic density including concentrations of fishing vessels or any other vessels;
(iii) The maneuverability of the vessel with special reference to stopping distance and turning ability in the prevailing conditions;
(iv) At night, the presence of background light such as from shore lights or from back scatter from her own lights;
(v) The state of wind, sea and current, and the proximity of navigational hazards;
(vi) The draft in relation to the available depth of water.

(b) Additionally, by vessels with operational radar:
(i) The characteristics, efficiency and limitations of the radar equipment;
(ii) Any constraints imposed by the radar range scale in use;
(iii) The effect on radar detection of the sea state, weather and other sources of interference;
(iv) The possibility that small vessels, ice and other floating objects may not be detected by radar at an adequate range;
(v) The number, location and movement of vessels detected by radar;
(vi) The more exact assessment of the visibility that may be possible when radar is used to determine the range of vessels or other objects in the vicinity.

Rule 7 - Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:
(i) Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.
(ii) Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.

Rule 8 - Action to Avoid Collision

(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with Rules 4-19 and shall if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.

(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed should be avoided.

(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.

(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.

(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to assess the situation, a vessel shall slacken her speed or take all way off by stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.

(f)(i) A vessel which, by any of these Rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall, when required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be required by Rules 4-19.
(iii) A vessel, the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with Rules 4-19 when the two vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.

As to the proper display of lights when at anchor or moored.

Rule 30 - Anchored Vessels and Vessels Aground

(a) A vessel at anchor shall exhibit where it can best be seen:

(i) in the fore part, an all-round white light or one ball;
(ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the light prescribed in Rule 30(a)(i), an all-round white light
A fore and aft all around white light aids in defining the length and position of the boat, e.g., at which heading it lies due to wind or current or by being fixedly moored fore and aft.

INTERPRETATIVE RULE (33 CFR 90.5|82.5) Lights for moored vessels

For the purposes of Rule 30 of the 72 COLREGS,> a “vessel at anchor” includes a <barge><<vessel>> made fast to one or more mooring buoys or other similar device attached to the <sea or river> <<ocean>> floor. Such <barge><<vessel>> may be lighted as a vessel at anchor in accordance with Rule 30, or may be lighted on the corners in accordance with Rule 30(h)-(l).

(b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best be seen instead of the lights prescribed in Rule 30(a). Vessels at Anchor This length of vessel is what most of us own / charter, but note it says "may" and is an exception to the general, that is to say it is a permitted instead but not necessarily the preferred option.

(c) A vessel at anchor may, and a vessel of 100 meters and more in length shall, also use the available working or equivalent lights to illuminate her decks. Note, vessels that are shorter in length MAY also use available lights to illuminate their decks.

(d) A vessel aground shall exhibit the lights prescribed in Rule 30(a) or (b) and in addition, if practicable, where they can best be seen; Vessel Aground
(i) two all-round red lights in a vertical line;
(ii) three balls in a vertical line.

(e) A vessel of less than 7 meters in length, when at anchor not in or near a narrow channel, fairway or where other vessels normally navigate, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shape prescribed in Rule 30(a) and (b). Beware of unlighted little vessels as they also can go bump in the night.

(f) A vessel of less than 12 meters in length, when aground, shall not be required to exhibit the lights or shapes prescribed in Rule 30(d)(i) and (ii).

Inland
(g) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length, when at anchor in a special anchorage area designated by the Coast Guard, shall not be required to exhibit the anchor lights and shapes required by this Rule.



Bon Voyages.
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Old 09-02-2023, 17:01   #191
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

Yeah I don’t know about all of these alternative thoughts re anchoring signals/lights. To me, my prime objective is to keep from being hit after dark. So, bright masthead light (for most seamanlike mariners who know how to look at them and judge distance etc) LED deck lights (for those who plane in their dinghies after dark) and AIS on at all times (to help those who stare at their screens instead of using their eyeballs).

Why wouldn’t you want as many ways as possible to alert others where you are?
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Old 09-02-2023, 17:04   #192
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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That regulation is for class A AIS, not for class B which is what recreational boaters use.

And it's not a Regulation, it's a Guideline.
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Old 09-02-2023, 17:27   #193
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Originally Posted by Lodesman View Post
Where in the Rule book does it say that Rule 7 is applicable to moving vessels, but not anchored ones?


It’s under the steering and sailing rules,something not done while anchored?
If you want to have a 24 hour watch, leave on your AIS, VHF and radar to feel safe while at anchor? More power to you,
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Old 09-02-2023, 17:57   #194
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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It’s under the steering and sailing rules,something not done while anchored?
Are you taking the piss?
Rule 1:
Quote:
These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels.
Rule 9 is in part B too, and it specifically mentions anchored vessels. And rule 5 has been repeatedly upheld in courts as being applicable to anchored vessels. It's also in the "steering and sailing" part. So if you're required to look-out, it only stands to reason you are required to do something with that lookout - like determining if there's a risk of collision.
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Old 09-02-2023, 18:05   #195
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Re: Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
Absolutely agree, yet it seems there’s a new age of boaters that solely rely on the little screen instead of their surroundings, and that’s where I have a problem with AIS being more of a distraction at anchor than a good navigational tool.
If there are 20 boats in an anchorage and 7 have their AIS turned on, then their signal to me is useless and a distraction to those solely relying on their screens. A false sense of security.
If AIS were mandatory and all anchored vessels had to legally display like anchor lights, then AIS may be a worthwhile tool at anchor, but until then it’s my opinion it’s more of a distraction for a certain group of people.
These damn kids these days and their damn iPads!

Seriously, I hear this argument all the time on this forum, yet I've never seen an instance of it. Where are these people sailing around watching only their screens? Sounds like a great way to take all the enjoyment out of sailing to me.

Old codgers (I say that as a term of endearment) have complained about technology ruining the youth for hundreds of years. My parents lamented the fact that kids were always on the internet and didn't know how to use a library. Their parents lamented that the kids just use calculators and don't know how to do arithmetic. Their parents lamented that the kids drove everywhere and didn't know how to ride a bike. All the way back to the very real and documented complaints of youth relying too heavily on paper. They evidently lacked the patience and care required to write on a slate.

AIS augments one's awareness of other boats. It doesn't prevent anyone from seeing with their eyes, or with radar, or hearing a horn in the fog, or seeing a light at night. It just adds another channel for the information to reach someone. And given that a lot fewer boats and ships sink these days vs 1000 years ago, I'm going to go ahead and say technological advances to aid mariners are generally a good thing. And since you've been remarkably bull-headed on this point in spite of pages and pages of very cogent arguments outlining why you're wrong, I'll go ahead and put you on my ignore list. Congrats, you're the second person to ever make that prestigious list.
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