Hitting an anchored boat in a sparsely populated anchorage while under sail

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Chotu, get a good search light, always handy on board.
Maybe that would helped to identify them.

One of mine is an old large Maglite which I put an LED reflector in.
Very bright and quite long range. Battery lasts forever.
Old Maglite are cheap and the LED projectors are not expensive either.

Mind you, in your neck of the woods you might get shot at if you disturb the bad guys. Does not happen over here..

Yes. It appears my rechargeable light has died and my other one is in storage. So I am without.

A light actually would have been great because it would have given them an awkward feeling and caused them to leave sooner I think.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by smj

Please read my posts. Numerous times I state that AIS no doubt has its place for what it was intended. I don’t think it was intended for anchored boats and I personally see more negatives than positives. Is that a problem?

FYI:

When can AIS be switched off?

https://www.marinetraffic.com/blog/a...20their%20ship.

According to IMO, AIS should always be on when vessels are underway or anchored for increased visibility and safety reasons.

Only under one condition could AIS be switched off, and this is in imminent danger and only when the Captain of the ship is certain that the continuous signal broadcast compromises the safety and security of their ship. A report including the actions taken as well as the reason for deciding to switch off AIS to the competent authority should always follow and be saved in the ship’s logbook. When the threat is not imminent anymore, the Captain should switch AIS back on right away.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Montanan

FYI:



When can AIS be switched off?



https://www.marinetraffic.com/blog/a...20their%20ship.



According to IMO, AIS should always be on when vessels are underway or anchored for increased visibility and safety reasons.



Only under one condition could AIS be switched off, and this is in imminent danger and only when the Captain of the ship is certain that the continuous signal broadcast compromises the safety and security of their ship. A report including the actions taken as well as the reason for deciding to switch off AIS to the competent authority should always follow and be saved in the ship’s logbook. When the threat is not imminent anymore, the Captain should switch AIS back on right away.

That regulation is for class A AIS, not for class B which is what recreational boaters use.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by smj

That regulation is for class A AIS, not for class B which is what recreational boaters use.

True, we aren't bound by the IMO regulations, but that doesn't mean they aren't good advice to follow where practical.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

True, we aren't bound by the IMO regulations, but that doesn't mean they aren't good advice to follow where practical.

And the use of AIS at anchor is practical for some but not all?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by smj

And the use of AIS at anchor is practical for some but not all?

When I say "where practical", I was referring to IMO rules in general. Some of them just don't apply to recreational boats because of how and where we operate, others would rely on equipment that no recreational boat has. For this one, I'd say it's practical to follow for any boat equipped with an AIS transponder unless they're in a situation where conserving power is critical, or as the rule mentions, a safety issue exists where you need to avoid making your presence known.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

When I say "where practical", I was referring to IMO rules in general. Some of them just don't apply to recreational boats because of how and where we operate, others would rely on equipment that no recreational boat has. For this one, I'd say it's practical to follow for any boat equipped with an AIS transponder unless they're in a situation where conserving power is critical, or as the rule mentions, a safety issue exists where you need to avoid making your presence known.

So it’s practical to you as that is your comfort level. Not practical for me as I have a different comfort level.
As I said, I’m in an area where we have 350 boats either moored or on anchor. Out of the 350 there are 14 AIS signals, so basically doing nothing. Probably 30% are using anchor lights, so 70% are breaking the law and would be held liable in a collision. I’ll check tonight and see if those with their AIS turned on are also using anchor lights.

[Montanan]

FYI:

AIS Frequently Asked Questions

Navigation Center
United States Coast Guard
U.S. Department of Homeland Security

Reference link: https://navcen.uscg.gov/ais-frequently-asked-questions#6

6. When must AIS be in operation?

Per 33 CFR 164.46(d), vessels required to have AIS must operate it in U.S. navigable waters (as defined in 33 CFR 2.36) at all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor) and at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated. Note, vessels equipped with AIS--either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily--must abide by the requirements set forth in 33 CFR 164.46 which state an AIS must be: properly installed, use an officially assigned MMSI, that its data be accessible from the primary operating position of the vessel, and, always be in effective operating condition; which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input (see USCG AIS Encoding Guide) and upkeep of all AIS data parameters. Although Coast Guard AIS authority (46 USC 70114) does not extend beyond U.S. navigable waters or to all voluntary users, mariners are reminded that Navigation Rule 7 requires that every vessel use all available means to determine risk of collision. AIS is one of the most effective means currently available, particularly when coupled with radar and sight, to not only determine the risk of, but, also mitigate collisions. Thus the Coast Guard exhorts all AIS users to maintain their AIS in effective operation, at all times.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Montanan

FYI:



AIS Frequently Asked Questions



Navigation Center

United States Coast Guard

U.S. Department of Homeland Security



Reference link: https://navcen.uscg.gov/ais-frequently-asked-questions#6



6. When must AIS be in operation?



Per 33 CFR 164.46(d), vessels required to have AIS must operate it in U.S. navigable waters (as defined in 33 CFR 2.36) at all times that the vessel is navigating (underway or at anchor) and at least 15 minutes prior to unmooring. Should continual operation of AIS compromise the safety or security of the vessel or where a security incident is imminent, the AIS may be switched off. This action and the reason for taking it must be reported to the nearest U.S. Captain of the Port or Vessel Traffic Center and recorded in the ship's logbook. The AIS should return to continuous operation as soon as the source of danger has been mitigated. Note, vessels equipped with AIS--either by mandatory carriage or voluntarily--must abide by the requirements set forth in 33 CFR 164.46 which state an AIS must be: properly installed, use an officially assigned MMSI, that its data be accessible from the primary operating position of the vessel, and, always be in effective operating condition; which entails the continuous operation of AIS and the accurate input (see USCG AIS Encoding Guide) and upkeep of all AIS data parameters. Although Coast Guard AIS authority (46 USC 70114) does not extend beyond U.S. navigable waters or to all voluntary users, mariners are reminded that Navigation Rule 7 requires that every vessel use all available means to determine risk of collision. AIS is one of the most effective means currently available, particularly when coupled with radar and sight, to not only determine the risk of, but, also mitigate collisions. Thus the Coast Guard exhorts all AIS users to maintain their AIS in effective operation, at all times.

Key words “vessels required to have AIS”, those vessels will have to live by those regulations, the majority of recreational vessels aren’t required to have AIS, so use is optional.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/164.46#b

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by smj

Key words “vessels required to have AIS”, those vessels will have to live by those regulations, the majority of recreational vessels aren’t required to have AIS, so use is optional.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/164.46#b

If you read the last and bolded line, the word exhort is used for ALL AIS USERS. It does not say, users required to operate AIS. Furthermore it outlines the reasoning for this exhortation.



Exhort is a strong suggestion, not a requirement.



Your stance that AIS should be off at anchor or mooring is directly opposed by ADVICE of the USCG.



Damn screens.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by smj

So it’s practical to you as that is your comfort level. Not practical for me as I have a different comfort level.
As I said, I’m in an area where we have 350 boats either moored or on anchor. Out of the 350 there are 14 AIS signals, so basically doing nothing. Probably 30% are using anchor lights, so 70% are breaking the law and would be held liable in a collision. I’ll check tonight and see if those with their AIS turned on are also using anchor lights.

No, comfort level has nothing to do with it. "I don't wanna" doesn't mean not practical. You're conflating the idea of what you think you should or want to do with what is practical to do. If you have a transceiver, it's practical to transmit at anchor. You may not want to, but that's different. And even if you transmit, that doesn't mean you can't just ignore the AIS and let it do its thing.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Chotu

A light actually would have been great because it would have given them an awkward feeling and caused them to leave sooner I think.

I myself make it a point not to get in the middle of these sorts of minor matters. I'm not the police and don't want to be. Lighting up people like that at night can draw retaliation, sometimes long after the fact.

Friends come and go but enemies tend to accumulate over time.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by smj

Key words “vessels required to have AIS”, those vessels will have to live by those regulations, the majority of recreational vessels aren’t required to have AIS, so use is optional.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/164.46#b

FYI: As per the USCG exhortation for voluntary use at all times:


ex·hort
[iɡˈzôrt]
VERB
exhorts (third person present)

strongly encourage or urge (someone) to do something:

And then there is Colregs Rule 7, which is of Shall not a May as to compliance.

Risk of collision.

(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there as any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observations of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account.

(i) such risk shall be deemed to exist it the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.

(ii) such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.

The Seamanship Centre

https://seamanship.ie/col-regs-rule-...-of-collision/

Explanation Rule 7

Taking compass bearings is one of the most important means of determining risk of collision. Good visibility is needed to use this technique and a series or number of bearings need to be taken. On smaller vessels bearings may be taken using a hand-bearing compass, on larger vessels, a bearing or azimuth ring is used.

In restricted visibility, the primary tracking instrument is radar, if fitted and operational. Radar should also be used to track a vessel in good visibility in open areas after the vessel has been sighted visually. On vessels fitted with two radars it may be advantageous to use relative motion display on one radar and true motion display on the other

All available means includes the use of the above techniques plus the use of VHF, visual look-out, AIS etc, When using VHF it should be borne in mind the problems of identification and communication and that valuable time may be wasted in attempting to make radio contact instead of concentrating on the assessment of collision risk and the need for action.

Automatic identification systems (AIS) are now being fitted to vessels, in accordance with the carriage requirements of the Safety of Life at Sea Convention (SOLAS). It should be remembered that not all vessels carry AIS.

Collision avoidance must be carried out in strict compliance with the COLREG. There is no provision in the COLREG for use of AIS information, therefore, decisions should be taken based primarily on systematic visual and/or radar observations. The availability and display of AIS data similar to one produced by systematic radar target tracking (e.g. automatic radar plotting or tracking aid (ARPA, ATA)) should not be given priority over the latter. AIS target data will only be based on the target vessels’ course and speed over ground whilst for COLREG compliance such data must be based on the vessels’ course and speed through the water. See MGN 324 Amendment 1 for further information.

The Rules do not state what risk of collision is or when it exists. Risk of collision exists when two vessels are following courses that would take them to the same position in a few minutes. Risk of collision would NOT exist for two slow-moving vessels 16 miles apart heading for the same position.

A definition of when the Regulations apply for risk of collision is, “They only apply at a time, when, if either of them does anything contrary to the Regulations, it will cause danger of collision. None of the Regulations apply unless that period of time has arrived. It follows that anything done before the time arrives at which the Regulations apply is immaterial, because anything done before that time cannot produce risk of collision within the meaning of the Regulations”. (Lord Esher, 1887)

When determining risk of collision a number of factors are involved:

Closest distance of approach
Type of waterway
Vessel size and manoeuvrability
Speed
Distance out from closest point of approach
Relative bearing

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Jammer

I myself make it a point not to get in the middle of these sorts of minor matters. I'm not the police and don't want to be. Lighting up people like that at night can draw retaliation, sometimes long after the fact.

Friends come and go but enemies tend to accumulate over time.

I’m not so sure that would have caused an enemy.

Just turning on the light for a minute to see a boat that has no navigation lights tearing through the Anchorage at night under sail would kind of remind them to move over to where there are no boats. Or at the very minimum turn on their NAV lights so people aren’t shining a light to see who they are.

It’s an act of observation, not aggression.

It’s showing them that people are aware of them doing weird stuff at night. And that they are out of place. Maybe they didn’t even know they were out of place.

If you are tacking back-and-forth through the Anchorage hitting boats and someone shine the light to see what you are doing, you are getting out of there. You’re not getting mad at the person looking at you.

And if people are coming on my boat to attack me? Good luck to them. Seriously. One of the above posts was talking about how Americans always have guns so you should watch out. Well, yes we do, and it works both ways to keep the peace. As a proper owner I don’t talk about them. But I’m really not afraid of people breaking into my boat at all. When I’m here.

I’m with you. I don’t try to get involved in anything that it’s not necessary either. But I think they could have stood a little light shining so they would know that people were watching them. They seemed so inexperienced that they may have assumed all of these boats were empty.

It was just downright bizarre.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I’m not so sure that would have caused an enemy.

Just turning on the light for a minute to see a boat that has no navigation lights tearing through the Anchorage at night under sail would kind of remind them to move over to where there are no boats. Or at the very minimum turn on their NAV lights so people aren’t shining a light to see who they are.

It’s an act of observation, not aggression.

It’s showing them that people are aware of them doing weird stuff at night. And that they are out of place. Maybe they didn’t even know they were out of place.

If you are tacking back-and-forth through the Anchorage hitting boats and someone shine the light to see what you are doing, you are getting out of there. You’re not getting mad at the person looking at you.

In most cases, yeah, that's the reaction you'll get. But every once in a while, you do encounter the screwy people that take the "how dare you call me out?" attitude and get all pissed off as if it's your fault they were doing something stupid and dangerous. I don't generally let that get in my way though, as it happens infrequently and rarely leads to a dangerous situation when there wasn't already a risk of one happening.