Frustrated, stressed, and about to give up.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by more

in Czech Republic. how you think walk around docks in Czech Republic

Sorry, I didn't notice your location. I hope the one in Turkey works out.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by Pepijn

Hi all, I am so sorry to have neglected timely responses to you all! I just read all the comments and appreciate all of your input. There was an early poster about going now because time is valuable too, which choked up my wife! So true...

And yes, walking the docks and see lots of boats is not easy from Czech Republic.

Anyway, let me update you all about what transpired these last 2 weeks...

After we got in a dip about the search we decided to hunt down a boat we liked much (but the broker did not act on our initial contact about it) via an intensive internet search on the name of the boat. We managed to reach out to the current owners through FB and they responded nicely (and yes, I asked, about the broker agreement they had, but they said it was simple: if the broker found one they pay up, if they find someone they deal without the broker).

So we managed to bring the price down (of course it helped them not having to pay the broker) to 130k. We probably still paid premium, but ok I was willing to accept it. And only on the condition that anything found by the surveyor would be for their account. That was fine according the owners.

So we paid for the haul out and the survey. We traveled down to Turkey last Sunday (oh boy, the trip is another story in itself) and met up with the owners yesterday. Absolutely a lovely and friendly couple! Sad part is that after preparing the boat for circumnavigation the last 4 years, they have to let go of their dream due to personal reasons. A lot of equipment and instrumentation was renewed (it was great to see that they left all the old and still working instrumentation in place for redundancy, such as autopilot, radar, wind, depths, chartplotter, etc.). A lovely boat, ready to go so to speak!

Then the surveyor came today. Inspected the boat on his first of 2 days inspection and found the following issues:
- The moisture measurements were still high accross the entire hull, most likely because the boat has been on the hard for just 5 days in relative cold weather. He recommended some more time. Tapping did not reveal any problems so far. He will do another measurement on the day we plan the seatrial which is at least 2 weeks from now.
- There were paint bubbles on the keel due to poor application previously done by another yard elsewhere. A matter of grit blasting it and reprime and paint again before anti fouling. No issue there, owner agreed to do for their own account.

- The last, but also my biggest concern for which I seek your input: the teak deck! (I know I open another can of discussions with having a teak deck or not) The teak deck was entirely replaced in 2017 (which was a big pro for us, as we do not need to worry for another 10-15 years), however the surveyor noticed through tapping that both PS/SB sides had many places where the teak was not properly attached to the deck. In some the water even started to squirt out through "pin" holes in the caulking. The aft deck (behind the cockpit) was all fine. The way it was laid showed poor workmanship (the spaces between the teak were of different widths). Also, the new teak was laid with screws again, something I don't understand why. I know from other forum discussion that this job can amount up to 15k Euro if not more. The owners again agreed to resolve it (about 60% need to be redone), however, I do not know what is going on underneath the teak.

\the boat is a Beneteau 44CC from 1998!

A couple of questions:
1. Does anyone know the sandwich structure of the deck. I believe that it is a balsa cored deck (I asked the surveyor but he could not firmly confirm it). Anyone else can confirm?
2. How likely is it that the toplayer is compromised by the screws and that water has entered the balsa core?
3. Is there any other way to investigate this without any destructive testing?

We spent close to 2500 Euro for the trip, the survey, and haul out. But those costs will dwarf by the possibility to have the core replaced.

Any advice/opinions?

You might consider starting a new thread with the question "Help me with my teak deck on my new Beneteau 44c" and you'll get a lot more pertinent answers than here, with the current subject line.

[DeValency]

Pepijn - is the teak deck the only significant comment the surveyor had? Few pictures of the areas in question could help. As far as I know, Beneteau 44 CC has a balsa cored deck.

As for the teak deck possible repair. Not necessarily a serious issue but should be treated professionally. What could be done is pulling the screws, at least at and around all the areas showing insufficient teak bonding to the deck and if the planks are loose, remove, let it dry (can be accelerated with a heat gun) seal the screw holes with epoxy and reinstall with glue only and apply a proper weight. If the planks are still well bonded, the defective caulk should be removed, also the screws in that area, after drying, inject epoxy into the holes and recaulk.

There are good trades in Turkey specialized in such a job and it can cost far less than in Western Europe.

[more]

teak deck with screw on balsa cored. run
this is not a proper make teak deck. If you buy this boat after you teak repair,for couple year you have problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_N72PHTcZo

[barnakiel]

A broker that does not respond to whatever communication method they named on their website is bull**** and not worth their name.


They did not have to place email as a contact method. If they did, they should respond and timely so.



Same applies to grocery shop owners.



b.

[Emouchet]

Are you sure the high moisture measurements is most likely because the boat has been on the hard for just 5 days ? I have always been told that moisture measurement can be done right after the haul out. It does not matter, as it measures internal humidity level, not external. Last boat I purchased, the survey was done with the boat still in the slings, and humidity level was low...

I cannot say about the deck core material. I do not know that boat specifically.

The usual formulae about teak deck is "Teaky - Leaky". Screwing the new teak on the deck is bad work, and increase risk for potential of leaks. Most boats with teak deck nowadays have glued teak, no screw to avoid any water ingress in the deck core.

It's a bummer. Better think about it twice, because a wet deck core structure is an expensive repair, or if you plan on doing it yourself very time consuming.

Repairing, will mean stripping the teak, stripping the top layer fiber and old rotten core, replacing with plywood or balsa or corecell, re-fiber, re-finish and new teak.

[CarinaPDX]

It is a bit surprising that a teak deck was replaced with screws less than 5 years ago - these days the deck is usually sealed using epoxy and then the teak is put down with epoxy and a vacuum technique. If just by walking on it you can squeeze out water, which is what I think the OP said, then water is under the teak and probably able to reach some screws. If the screws were sealed when installed that may not be a problem, but if water can flow down the screw into the core, assuming there is one, that can be serious - especially if the core is balsa. Clearly the areas with water intrusion need pulling up and repairing, which I would do by filling the holes in the deck and putting down the planks with epoxy (the teak can probably be re-used if careful). Put plugs in the old holes and it will appear the same as the rest. Also, keep notes about where the repairs are done (that is, which specific planks) which will make it easier to repair in the future. Alternatively just rip it all up, open up the holes a bit to get a clean hole, fill them with epoxy (and possibly a layer of thin glass/epoxy), and put down teak (old if possible, or new) using vacuum or weights - or use a good deck paint and be done with it. Turkey is a good place to get this work done at a reasonable price - just stick with a vendor with a good reputation. There used to be several in Marmaris.

It can be difficult to know the condition of the core with the teak in place so this does represent an unknown risk unless the teak is removed, which may well be unnecessary. Tough call.

Greg

[more]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

Greg

GReg now imagine you in his situation

you save 130 000€
find boat 3000 km from your home in a strange country, you don know local langue, winter everything is closed.
you buy this boat and you need intensive work 1-month minimum and also need good weather window.
what you do buy boat or return home

[Pepijn]

Thanks again! And indeed the teak question could have been reposted in a new thread, but seeing the responses I think we know enough for the next steps. Below more.

And no other major issues were found other then written earlier. There was a comment about the upper bearing of the shaft that the owner will replace.

So, after reading up a lot about the teak and cored decks it is clear that the risk of water penetrating through the screw holes with water from under the teak is significant. Without further inspection we cannot know for sure. If they are going to replace the teak we cannot be present and therefore dont know for sure it will be checked. After all it is not in the owners benefit to want to know more. Just fix it and let it go...

We'll be meeting with the owners later to tell them that we'll stop the process. Unless they can provide proof (pictures/videos) of dry and clean core or invite me to come over to personnally inspect the random test drills in the core we will not buy it.

Based on square meter of the affected area (approx. 14m2 and the price the current yard quoted to them: 800E/m2 (which they find expensive) we are talking about roughly 12k Euro repair cost. Throw in another 10k Euro to replace areas with balsa core we could consider a price reduction of 22k Euro and do the job under our supervision. We'd likely do away with the entire teak deck and just put a new antislip toplayer without teak. Not sure if the final cost will be higher but at least we'll be around to ensure a proper job done.

We'll keep you updated. Thanks again for the comments and keep them coming!

[Pepijn]

And More is correct. It is not easy to keep coming up and down to Turkey. Even if I come alone (this time I brought my wife and daughter along to see whether they like the boat, which they do).

I suspect that the owners do not want to reduce the price that much. And we do not want to buy the boat not knowing the potential damage after they repair it. Therefore, we most likely cut our losses, cry out, and move on....

[more]

Originally Posted by Pepijn

And More is correct. It is not easy to keep coming up and down to Turkey. Even if I come alone (this time I brought my wife and daughter along to see whether they like the boat, which they do).

I suspect that the owners do not want to reduce the price that much. And we do not want to buy the boat not knowing the potential damage after they repair it. Therefore, we most likely cut our losses, cry out, and move on....

No, prolong stay go in shopping in Istanbul visit Pamukkale.
PS.
why you want CC
on CC only good is back owner cabin. Cockpit sucks in warm water area this is good only for half/day

[CarinaPDX]

If the seller can get 100k€ he may well take the money and run. Any good surveyor is going to question whether the core has rot, and will alert any potential buyer to the possibility. The seller is not going to want to supervise such a project so reality says he is going to have to take a hit and now is better than later: it costs money to hold a boat (moorage, insurance, maintenance). I would definitely not assume that he will walk away.

Whether you should walk away is the real question. Consider that if you were to buy the boat and not repair the entire deck you risk rot developing, or spreading. Unless you want to risk losing much of the value in short order you need to do a proper repair. While I mentioned repairing areas that are symptomatic that is a risky approach due to the possibility for hidden leaks and rot. The best way to preserve value is to rip up the teak, drill out the screw holes to solid FRP, fill the holes and cover with a layer of glass and epoxy (not essential but the best approach), then cover with paint/nonskid decking/teak as preferred. And hope that the core is good, but you will be able to check with the teak off. Since the teak is only 5 years old if it looks good you may be able to re-use it, if you want teak. Otherwise a good non-skid paint can look good and work well.

Marmaris is a good place to get this work done, and a nice place to spend some time. You could take a vacation there and spend a little time with the yard and still have a great time.

Where is she moored now?

If I were in your situation I'm not sure what I would do - you would be starting out your ownership with a major project that has a significant risk of escalation. And you will be negotiating in a different culture, and will need to do some research to find a trustworthy contractor. There are good companies and workers in Turkey, and generally very honest. Just remember that anything that you don't negotiate the price in advance of the work will likely have an inflated bill - not always but that does seem to be acceptable in that culture.

Greg

[Pepijn]

Hi all,

An update of today. So after contemplating the whole morning we actually wanted to back out. We met again with the owners this afternoon, and I was impressed with how helpful and forthcoming they were with the issues. They already started to work on the other issues today with the yard. So we had the discussion about the balsa cored deck and told them that we considered backing out unless the balsa core is confirmed to be ok.

Since they still had to resolve the matter for other buyers they had called in a carpenter from Fethiye who drove all the way over to investigate the matter and confirmed the issues. According him wrong bonding material was used and he is able to repair/replace the teakdeck where it is not properly laid including a 2 year warranty on the works. (apparently something they did not get from their previous carpenter).

The big surprise here is that this particular type of the Oceanis Clipper 44CC does not have a sandwiched deck structure, but solid! Rare exception in the long line of Beneteau boats, especially the Oceanis series. I will call Beneteau tomorrow to see if they can back this up. I cannot find any useful (reliable) info on the internet. Not even on the Beneteau site with their technical specs of the heritage series.

If this is true, the only major showstopper is out the way and we could proceed with the works and a follow up survey and seatrial.

Greg, the boat is currently in Finike.

[Pepijn]

Originally Posted by more

No, prolong stay go in shopping in Istanbul visit Pamukkale.
PS.
why you want CC
on CC only good is back owner cabin. Cockpit sucks in warm water area this is good only for half/day

I know it may not be the best choice in some conditions (such as med mooring, etc.) however we felt that we were better off with a CC for long distance cruising and circumnavigation. Also with young kids we felt a CC would be better suited. Also the fact that the bulkhead steering provides some more protection would benefit is more.

Last but not least, I simply needed an island bed for my length and hate to bend in many shapes to get in or out bed or worse climb over someone to get in or out.

There are indeed many pros and cons. In our review the pros outweighted the cons for the CC.

[DeValency]

Originally Posted by Pepijn

I know it may not be the best choice in some conditions (such as med mooring, etc.) however we felt that we were better off with a CC for long distance cruising and circumnavigation. Also with young kids we felt a CC would be better suited. Also the fact that the bulkhead steering provides some more protection would benefit is more.

Last but not least, I simply needed an island bed for my length and hate to bend in many shapes to get in or out bed or worse climb over someone to get in or out.

There are indeed many pros and cons. In our review the pros outweighted the cons for the CC.

CC is definitely the right design for your plans with offshore cruising. The best, most prestigious, blue water cruisers are mostly CC for these reasons. I'm not a big fan of Beneteau in general but I know this model really well - almost bought one few years ago. The Beneteau 44CC is has a superb design by Bruce Farr (unlike most other Beneteaus) and was built to higher standards in comparison to their common coastal sailing boats.

The update from yesterday is encouraging. All in all it looks like you are on the right track. Best of luck!