Ever seen a UFO?

[Mike OReilly]

Cyan, you can believe there are unknown unknowns regarding our understanding of physics -- and I believe this is likely true, much like I believe that it's likely true there is other life and even other civilizations out there. But both of these beliefs are statistical arguments, not ones based in current known reality. They are closer to faith-based beliefs than scientific ones.

My view is that we can only rationally discuss what we actually know right now. Otherwise, we're just talking science fiction. And what we actually know is physics makes interstellar travel exceedingly difficult. It is beyond our capabilities to send humans anywhere right now, and would be no less challenging for other aliens.

And this ignores the reality that we have nowhere to go right now...

BTW, quantum entanglement is, as they say, spooky. But so are a lot of quantum effects. Heck, the relatively simple concept of a quantum leap is equally weird, and it's been well understood for over 100 years now. There is no parallel to the macro world. So there's no reason to think entanglement will have a macro effect either.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Cyan, you can believe there are unknown unknowns regarding our understanding of physics -- and I believe this is likely true, much like I believe that it's likely true there is other life and even other civilizations out there. But both of these beliefs are statistical arguments, not ones based in current known reality. They are closer to faith-based beliefs than scientific ones.

My view is that we can only rationally discuss what we actually know right now. Otherwise, we're just talking science fiction. And what we actually know is physics makes interstellar travel exceedingly difficult. It is beyond our capabilities to send humans anywhere right now, and would be no less challenging for other aliens.

And this ignores the reality that we have nowhere to go right now...

BTW, quantum entanglement is, as they say, spooky. But so are a lot of quantum effects. Heck, the relatively simple concept of a quantum leap is equally weird, and it's been well understood for over 100 years now. There is no parallel to the macro world. So there's no reason to think entanglement will have a macro effect either.

Good points, Mike. I do think the macro world provides at least a view into the quantum micro world. A visible interference pattern from the classic slit experiment still shows itself even with the modern ability to shoot ONE photon at a time. What the heck? What exactly did it interfere with, all by itself?! If that doesn’t have you amazed, then you just didn’t understand the implications.

I once made a good living using Newton’s laws of motion, sprinkled with the magic of a Kalman filter. In the midst of those technology discoveries, I learned to keep an open mind. One of the more brilliant nerds of our team often lamented that we proudly fight gravity, yet we still don’t know exactly what it is. He would quip: While the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics won’t let us have free lunches, it does not prevent us from paying in novel ways.

I’m not sure if we are currently being visited by interstellar UFOs. I CAN be sure that some folks should not be as sure as they think they are.

[Mike OReilly]

Yes, wavy particles. Probability waves... We are all probability waves, yet we don't spontaneously turn into rabbits, or travel from A to C without passing through B. All these are real quantum effects which are measurable, and can have real impacts in specific, subatomic settings. Yet there are few functional macro effects that we yet know how to harness (there are some electronics which relies on these effects).

This doesn't mean it's impossible to harness these effect in the macro world, but based on what we think we know, it is currently out of reach.

Originally Posted by cyan

I’m not sure if we are currently being visited by interstellar UFOs. I CAN be sure that some folks should not be as sure as they think they are.

I'm not sure (as in 100% certain) of anything. Heck, I can't even prove my own existence, so I'm sure as heck not going to say we definitely aren't being visited by aliens.

But if we're going to stay grounded in the things we know, then the alien-visitation theory makes little sense. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but right now the evidence does not support the idea. There are far better explanations for all

[Boatyarddog]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Cyan, you can believe there are unknown unknowns regarding our understanding of physics -- and I believe this is likely true, much like I believe that it's likely true there is other life and even other civilizations out there. But both of these beliefs are statistical arguments, not ones based in current known reality. They are closer to faith-based beliefs than scientific ones.

My view is that we can only rationally discuss what we actually know right now. Otherwise, we're just talking science fiction. And what we actually know is physics makes interstellar travel exceedingly difficult. It is beyond our capabilities to send humans anywhere right now, and would be no less challenging for other aliens.

And this ignores the reality that we have nowhere to go right now...

BTW, quantum entanglement is, as they say, spooky. But so are a lot of quantum effects. Heck, the relatively simple concept of a quantum leap is equally weird, and it's been well understood for over 100 years now. There is no parallel to the macro world. So there's no reason to think entanglement will have a macro effect either.

Quote
"And what we actually know is physics makes interstellar travel exceedingly difficult. It is beyond our capabilities to send humans anywhere right now, and would be no less challenging for other aliens. "

Guess I can't agree to saying its "would be no less challenging for aliens."
They may know a lot more than we do.
If they exist.
SV Cloud Duster

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Boatyarddog

Quote
"And what we actually know is physics makes interstellar travel exceedingly difficult. It is beyond our capabilities to send humans anywhere right now, and would be no less challenging for other aliens. "

Guess I can't agree to saying its "would be no less challenging for aliens."
They may know a lot more than we do.
If they exist.
SV Cloud Duster

Sure, they may know how to travel the astral plane, and psionically project their consciousness across the Universe. My point is, if you're talking about unknown-unknowns, then anything might be possible. But based on what we do know, interstellar travel is very difficult.

[geoleo]

Dr Jung, In one of his daily dairy notes which summed up his experiences with his disturbed mental patients said. " I will not comment on the validity of persons now seeing UFO s -but will say that this is a becoming a widespread occurence and leads me to believe that we are seeing the start of a "Phychic Shift " --the likes of which only come around about once every 1000 years".

[GordMay]

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Cyan, you can believe there are unknown unknowns regarding our understanding of physics -- and I believe this is likely true, much like I believe that it's likely true there is other life and even other civilizations out there. But both of these beliefs are statistical arguments, not ones based in current known reality. They are closer to faith-based beliefs than scientific ones.

My view is that we can only rationally discuss what we actually know right now. Otherwise, we're just talking science fiction. And what we actually know is physics makes interstellar travel exceedingly difficult. It is beyond our capabilities to send humans anywhere right now, and would be no less challenging for other aliens.

And this ignores the reality that we have nowhere to go right now...

BTW, quantum entanglement is, as they say, spooky. But so are a lot of quantum effects. Heck, the relatively simple concept of a quantum leap is equally weird, and it's been well understood for over 100 years now. There is no parallel to the macro world. So there's no reason to think entanglement will have a macro effect either.

Mike,
You are correct about about knowns. I believe we would have to agree there are enough planets out there that supporting some form of life is probable. But are they visiting us? Even if they were, why contact an uncivilized alien "culture"?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Mike,
You are correct about about knowns. I believe we would have to agree there are enough planets out there that supporting some form of life is probable. But are they visiting us? Even if they were, why contact an uncivilized alien "culture"?

Agreed. Statistically speaking, there should be lots of life out there. But the fact that we've yet to detect it suggests either:

• There isn't other life, or it is far less common than we believe, or
• There is lots of life, but little has developed much beyond where we currently are.

This second option gets back to my hypothesis that humanity may, in fact, be one of the earliest space-venturing species to emerge in our galaxy. Based on some simple math, it's entirely possible that it has taken this long to evolve critters anywhere in our galaxy that can consider venturing beyond their home rock.

As to contacting others... what would we do if we sent a spacecraft 100s of light-years and only found a lesser culture? Would we say, "Meh, not worth the effort saying hi, let's go home..." I doubt it.

[jimbunyard]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Agreed. Statistically speaking, there should be lots of life out there. But the fact that we've yet to detect it suggests either:

• There isn't other life, or it is far less common than we believe, or
• There is lots of life, but little has developed much beyond where we currently are.

This second option gets back to my hypothesis that humanity may, in fact, be one of the earliest space-venturing species to emerge in our galaxy. Based on some simple math, it's entirely possible that it has taken this long to evolve critters anywhere in our galaxy that can consider venturing beyond their home rock.

As to contacting others... what would we do if we sent a spacecraft 100s of light-years and only found a lesser culture? Would we say, "Meh, not worth the effort saying hi, let's go home..." I doubt it.

Believe that 'simple math' will rely on the same uncertainties that plague the Fermi 'Paradox'.

It's unclear to me how the same math couldn't be used to show the opposite; that, though the vastness of the vacuum really renders the phrase ridiculous, the universe is "teeming with life". Excepting of course the "pan-dimensional beings" that 'almost certainly' inhabit those mysterious realms made up of 'dark matter and energy'...

Would (will?) be interesting to see what happens to both the dialogue and the equations when 'they' find simple life on other bodies in this solar system.

Does 'simple' eventually connote 'complex'? How complex are we anyway?

Without whatever gene-complex mutation and environment interaction that selected for eusociality, 'we'd' likely still be 'cracking bones with the jaw of an ass'.

And the way things seem to be going, we may soon rejoin that illustrious crowd of ancestors...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by jimbunyard

Believe that 'simple math' will rely on the same uncertainties that plague the Fermi 'Paradox'.

Yes indeed, as we all know, we currently have one data point for life. It's pretty hard to say anything definitive about a system when all you have is a sample size of one. The finding of life -- ANY life -- outside of Earth would be a game-changer. Even digging up some fossilized long-dead bacteria on Mars would be a huge step.

Until we do, we're all just speculating. But as I said, if you do the math, and assume:

#1. Life elsewhere requires similar heavy elements that make up life as we know it, and
#2. Our evolutionary path is typical.

Then the hypothesis that we may be one of the First Ones, is not unreasonable.