So am I gonna be able to sail to cuba! (Legally that is)

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Group9

Communism, and Cuba's repressive government, will die in Cuba when Fidel and Raoul die. Not before, no matter how many tourist visit Cuba.

My ability to predict the future is poor at best but I would be willing to place a large wager that this is 100% correct.

Originally Posted by Group9

Have fun, enjoy the cheap prices and super cheap labor, but don't delude yourself into thinking you are making things better or worse there for the average non-Party member Cuban. Maybe a little better for the party member Cubans, but that's about it (same as with the tourists and cruisers who go there now from other countries).

Tourists put a lot of money into the general economy, party members or not. Tourism creates jobs (maybe not the best, highest paying jobs). I doubt all the staff at every hotel is a party member. Same for restaurants that serve tourists. Add street vendors, small business owners, taxi drivers, souvenir shops and, as repugnant as the idea may be but it is a fact of life, members of the world's oldest profession.

No I think tourism brings in money that does indeed trickle down to a large segment of any economy.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

I met plenty of people who sailed to cuba. You can request no stamp in the passport so the US doesn't know you were there. Besides, you are allowed to go there, just not allowed to spend money.

You are completely fooling yourself if you don't understand that some government agency somewhere knows exactly who has gone to Cuba. Might not show up on your passport but passenger lists even from overseas flights are certainly in an NSA, FBI or other database, probably several databases.

Regarding "allowed to go but not spend money", that loophole was officially closed years ago.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by skipmac

My ability to predict the future is poor at best but I would be willing to place a large wager that this is 100% correct.




Tourists put a lot of money into the general economy, party members or not. Tourism creates jobs (maybe not the best, highest paying jobs). I doubt all the staff at every hotel is a party member. Same for restaurants that serve tourists. Add street vendors, small business owners, taxi drivers, souvenir shops and, as repugnant as the idea may be but it is a fact of life, members of the world's oldest profession.

No I think tourism brings in money that does indeed trickle down to a large segment of any economy.

Both my brothers and I have been to Cuba several times (since back in the late 70s until last year). The average Cuban, who is not a member of the Communist Party, lives in abject poverty you can only imagine. The party members, not so much. And, yes, most of the people who are allowed to interact with foreign tourist, are party members (if you don't believe that, pull one of them over to the side, and tell them that your boat is available to help anyone escape who wants to, and see what happens).

You are familiar with the two peso system in Cuba, and what it means to a Cuban, economics wise, who is not a party member, right?

[GordMay]

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce* estimates that the embargo costs the U.S. economy $1.2 billion per year in lost sales and exports, while the Cuban government estimates that the embargo costs the island itself $685 million annually.

* That pack of pinko, commie sympathizers

FWIW:
The night before he signed the embargo, JFK sent his Press Secretary, Pierre Salinger, to procure as many Cuban cigars as he could find. Salinger returned with a stash of 1,200 Petit Upmann cigars, whereupon, Kennedy smiled, opened his desk and took a long paper (embargo declaration), which he immediately signed.

[carstenb]

I visited Cuba about 10 years ago (not in a boat) and traveled extensively across the island. We simply rented a car and just drove pretty much anywhere we wanted to (military installations were off-limits just like in the rest of the world).

We spoke with lots of cubans and ate (very well) in private restaurants (actually illegal but they were everywhere).


We never ran into anyone who was afraid to talk with us (about everything). Except for passing through customs we never saw or spoke with any police and we were there for a month.

I'm looking forward to cruising the island when we come to the carribean.

Just to add a comment about poverty - I saw a lot more, and more abject poverty when I was on Jamaica than I saw on Cuba.

We dove when we were there and commented on the lack of fish. Our divemaster said this was due to overfishing by the Cuban fishermen. I will note that we only dove in one area on the south side of the island. Our dive master did tell us that the best place for diving etc was in the north side of the island in the national park Jardenia de Rex (sorry for the spelling)

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Group9

Both my brothers and I have been to Cuba several times (since back in the late 70s until last year). The average Cuban, who is not a member of the Communist Party, lives in abject poverty you can only imagine. The party members, not so much. And, yes, most of the people who are allowed to interact with foreign tourist, are party members (if you don't believe that, pull one of them over to the side, and tell them that your boat is available to help anyone escape who wants to, and see what happens).

You are familiar with the two peso system in Cuba, and what it means to a Cuban, economics wise, who is not a party member, right?

Never been personally but had a very close friend who spent 6 months cruising Cuba. His experience was pretty much identical to that reported by carstenb. As far as party membership, there are of course plenty of loyal party members but also lots of people that join to break into a better job. And yes I am very familiar with the double monetary system.

Bottom line, my opinion stands. The maids, waiters, taxi drivers, and all the myriad workers (including the street walkers) that cater to the tourism industry are not all party members. From direct reports from personal friends and all reports I have read by recent visitors there is a thriving gray market in Cuba and these people are surviving on tourist dollars. And I do mean surviving, not thriving but earning enough to put some food on the table. These are the ones who will suffer from a boycott. The elite are always going to do well or at least get by. It's the ones at the bottom of the food chain that get hurt.

While I haven't been to Cuba I have been to Jamaica but even worse Haiti. By all reports Haiti is by far the poorest country in the western hemisphere and the poor there I'm sure would love to change places with a Cuban.

[Group9]

Originally Posted by skipmac

While I haven't been to Cuba I have been to Jamaica but even worse Haiti. By all reports Haiti is by far the poorest country in the western hemisphere and the poor there I'm sure would love to change places with a Cuban.

Anytime you have a country where people will put themselves and their families into barely floating boats, and try and cross open ocean to get out of there, you know you have a real hell hole on your hands.

Cuba, and Haiti both make that grade. I don't know that I know of a single case of a Haitian getting into a boat and trying to make it to Cuba, or vice versa. I know of thousands of cases of Cubans and Haitians risking their lives to get to out of both places.

But, as noted, in a contest between cheap beer and human rights, cheap beer wins every time.

And, this is all just a moot discussion, as pretty much all decisions regarding the Cuban people, get made for them, without their input, and I imagine this decision will be made the same way.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Regarding "allowed to go but not spend money", that loophole was officially closed years ago.

Yes, it is really kind of sad how many people continue to repeat this nonsense, despite the fact that it has not been true for a very long time.

[hellosailor]

"Do or do not, there is no try."
Master Yoda was blissfully unaware of Schrodinger's Cat.

However, grasshopper, any US citizen may go anyplace they please, anytime they please, any way they please. That has been affirmed as part of the territory covered by "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".

The evil minions of a poorly controlled government may choose to ban your use of the common currency, but they cannot restrain your liberty to go there. Should they choose to do so, you have at your avail the court system, and should that also fail, you are entitled and encouraged to take up arms to correct the misbehavior. Failure to do so, would be treasonous.

So by all means, go now. Just don't spend any money there, and don't bring back any souvenirs.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Don't know about guns but they have very strict laws on what anchors you have to use.

No cats either...just mono's.

[natraps116]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Do or do not, there is no try."
Master Yoda was blissfully unaware of Schrodinger's Cat.

However, grasshopper, any US citizen may go anyplace they please, anytime they please, any way they please. That has been affirmed as part of the territory covered by "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness".

The evil minions of a poorly controlled government may choose to ban your use of the common currency, but they cannot restrain your liberty to go there. Should they choose to do so, you have at your avail the court system, and should that also fail, you are entitled and encouraged to take up arms to correct the misbehavior. Failure to do so, would be treasonous.

So by all means, go now. Just don't spend any money there, and don't bring back any souvenirs.

Here here!!!


Aye aye capn'!

Sent from my SM-T700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Pelagic]

I can just imagine the marketing changes in Cuba once USA eventualy normalizes trade relations.

Huge billboards of Monica Lewinsky cooing that any cigars other than Cubans.... is an impeachable offence.

gotta love progress..