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Captain Bill · 15-03-2011, 07:25

Recently the US Justice department announced that a federal grand Jury had returned indictments charging 13 hijackers of the S/V Quest with piracy and kidnapping, but no murder charges. Neither of the existing indictments carries the death penalty. The piracy charge is simple piracy as defined in Title 18 part 1651 of the US code. This charge carries a life imprisonment term. The pirates clearly could have been charged in addition with violation of Title 18 part 2280 which deals with murder on a US flagged vessel. This statute does provide for the death penalty. So far there is no explanation as to why charges under this statute were not sought.

US jury indicts 14 in fatal pirate attack on yacht - Boston.com

United States Code: Title 18,1651. Piracy under law of nations | LII / Legal Information Institute

United States Code: Title 18,2280. Violence against maritime navigation | LII / Legal Information Institute

One has to wonder if the US government puts a higher value on the life of Somali Pirates or if it puts a lower value on the lives of "rich yachters". Apparently the killing of 4 yachters does not merit even one charge of murder. I guess we can't expect that the US government will charge anyone with murder for killing us as long as it is done on the high seas.

perchance · 15-03-2011, 07:34

Are we absolutely sure the victims were killed by the pirates and not by "friendly fire"? If not, how do you determine who pulled the trigger? I have no idea if autopsies were performed to determine this so how would we know? I am just playing the devils advocate here but I think it is a valid question.

Captain Bill · 15-03-2011, 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by perchance

Are we absolutely sure the victims were killed by the pirates and not by "friendly fire"? If not, how do you determine who pulled the trigger? I have no idea if autopsies were performed to determine this so how would we know? I am just playing the devils advocate here but I think it is a valid question.

The statute does not require that the person pull the trigger, simply participating in a hijacking that results in the death of a person qualifies one for the death penalty. It is similar to the concept of felony murder. If a person dies during the commision of a felony, the person(s) commiting that felony are guilty of murder. It does not even require that the death be a victim of the predicate felony. If multiple people are commiting the felony and one of them dies as a result, then the other people involved in the predicate felony can be charged with murder.

perchance · 15-03-2011, 07:59

I would think that in the absence of overwhelming evidence the U.S. justice system would have no choice but to follow its own rules. After all the tenet that you are presumed innocent applies to all with the exception of those incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay. I realize that this decision may leave a bitter taste in the mouths of many but that is the price you pay for living in a free and democratic society. I for one wouldn't want it any other way.

witzgall · 15-03-2011, 08:15

I have two thoughts on why they might not be charging them with murder.

1. A deal, where the Somalis provide information in return for their lives.

2. A conviction is a forgone conclusion, and they don't want to antagonize the pirates still out there.

Actually, a third, is that they still building up information on the case before coming out with the third charge.

Chris

Captain Bill · 15-03-2011, 08:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by perchance

I would think that in the absence of overwhelming evidence the U.S. justice system would have no choice but to follow their own rules. After all the tenet that you are presumed innocent applies to all with the exception of those incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay. I realize that this decision may leave a bitter taste in mouths of many but that is the price you pay for living in a free and democratic society. I for one wouldn't want it any other way.

Are you seriously suggesting that the Quest was not hijacked by the people caught on board and that the crew was not killed? In a free and democartic society we are supposed to be governed by the rule of law and Title 18, 2280 is the law. I was not at all suggesting any extra judicial detention such as Guantanamo. You might notice I was not complaining about the lack of conviction of the pirates, but the lack of charges. You might also notice that the statute does not require the death penalty but only allows for the possibility. The fact is that under the law these individuals should also be charged with the death of four of their own in addition to the crew of the quest yet they were not charged with any death.

perchance · 15-03-2011, 08:32

I am not suggesting anything nor am I in any way claiming to have legal knowledge of this particular case. As I said at the outset I am merely playing the devils advocate. Those of you who have a better understanding of the U. S. legal system would be more qualified than I to comment.

**hummingway** · 15-03-2011, 08:56

If one more post strays this topic will be shut down. Please stay on topic and respect the rules of the forum.

kenny chaos · 15-03-2011, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by perchance

I am just playing the devils advocate here but I think it is a valid question.

What was the question?

nylajo · 15-03-2011, 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by perchance

I would think that in the absence of overwhelming evidence the U.S. justice system would have no choice but to follow its own rules. After all the tenet that you are presumed innocent applies to all with the exception of those incarcerated in Guantanamo Bay. I realize that this decision may leave a bitter taste in the mouths of many but that is the price you pay for living in a free and democratic society. I for one wouldn't want it any other way.

If perchance you had been the victim here, you may have taken a different view.

Captain Bill · 15-03-2011, 09:04

I have written the US Department of Justice and asked why the pirates were not charged under Title 18, 2280. I will share their response assuming I actually get one.

kenny chaos · 15-03-2011, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by nylajo

If perchance you had been the victim here, you may have taken a different view.

I agree; if he was killed, he'd think differently about it.

Noname1 · 15-03-2011, 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by perchance

Are we absolutely sure the victims were killed by the pirates and not by "friendly fire"? If not, how do you determine who pulled the trigger? I have no idea if autopsies were performed to determine this so how would we know? I am just playing the devils advocate here but I think it is a valid question.

This post clearly is intended to stir up trouble. I cannot see it in any other light.

Deaths of a ships crew as the result of piracy is murder. Period. End of report.

smurphny · 15-03-2011, 09:09

It could be that the pirates who did the murdering were the ones that were found dead. As I remember the incident, there were a couple of dead pirates as well as the crew. Perhaps it has been determined by those who know the details that the remainder of these mutts were not culpable enough to spend the extensive time and money it takes to seek the death penalty. In our prisons they will get clean clothes, a place to sleep, a TV, medical attention, and a safer place than their home country. That's probably why we saw the last one convicted walking out of court with a big smile on his face. Sad.