MSD Boarding in Florida

[captain58sailin]

"You can get anything your want, at Alice's restaurant."
"I don't want a pickle, I just want to ride on my motorcycle."
I believe Arlo Guthrie entertained us with similar stories. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

[Capt Phil]

Sounds like most folks have horror stories about boarding by authorities checking for MSD compliance. My experience has been just the opposite. I've been in and out of Avalon Harbor on Catalina probably 100 times and never met with anything but courteous, friendly harbor patrol folks. I've seen these guys go out of their way even on a busy long weekend to help out newbie cruisers pick up a mooring. As far as the west coast USCG goes, I've been boarded several times over the years on deliveries as well as my own vessel... same treatment... courteous, friendly and businesslike. One incident that stands out in my mind is the Fort Bragg USCG Station when, after a rather harrowing bar crossing, the CG boat pulled along side as we were tying up and asked if they could come aboard and do a safety inspection which included doc checks for vessel and crew, placard ID verification, fire suppression and MSD compliance. Not a problem until one of the coasties reported that the overboard valve for the day head was open. I had forgotten to close it in the heat of the moment concentrating on lining up our harbor entry through the surf line. The valves in the other 2 heads were ziptied to discharge into the black water tanks. The CG Skipper noted in his report, "no action taken, owner secured and locked valve". These guys and women were all armed, strategically placed aboard my boat and theirs and meant business but I would go to sea with any of them. They are a class unit. I wrote the Station Commander and told him so. Nice to have a pleasant tale to relate... Capt Phil

[Chief Engineer]

Maryland Natural Resources Police

The Maryland Natural Resources Police enforce all natural resource laws of the State,
including enforcement provisions of the Maryland State Boat Act on all waterways of the
State. The Natural Resources Police are also mandated to enforce all other laws of the State.
Patrol vessels can be identified by the blue emergency light, the “POLICE” identification
on the side of the vessels, and the uniformed officers on board. Boaters are reminded that
on the immediate approach of a Maryland Natural Resources Police patrol vessel using a
flashing blue light, the vessel operator, unless otherwise directed by the officer, shall yield
the right-of-way, stop the vessel, and stay in that position until the Natural Resources Police
vessel has passed. Failure to stop and/or permit boarding or inspection may subject the
operator or owner to a penalty of up to $500.00. All vessels, including those documented,
are subject to Maryland’s rules and regulations. A vessel does not have to be underway to
be boarded or inspected. A vessel may be boarded at dockside.

This is the way it is here on the Chesapeake

[Ti' Punch]

Again, the main thing here is not the boarding, it is how close this guy came to getting shot on his own boat for no good reason. The takeaway should be in any interaction with law enforcement, do EXACTLY as they say. This is not specific to boats. There have been several well publicized instances of people being shot while reaching for their wallets, making sudden movements, etc... The cop just needs to "perceive" a threat. I think it sucks, but until the rules change that's the way it is here now.

[bljones]

Originally Posted by smallyachts

It was my understanding from reading the article that the owner was down below before the boarding incident took place, delayed long enough to put out an open flame in the galley,

Y'see this is the part of the story where my antenna started twitching.
Count it off, and time it for yourself:
Helmsman alerts owner/capt. to LEO approaching but not yet on board: Figure 5 seconds to utter "Cops coming! They want to board!", even if you are Mel Tillis.
Capt. turns off burner under frying bacon: 1 second.
Capt. Further turns off supply valve; 10 seconds. Let's be generous and call it 20 seconds, assuming stuff has to be moved and a locker open.
So, TWENTY-SIX SECONDS after the helmsman sounds the alarm, the bacon-frying capt. turns around to see a cop goose-stepping down the companionway steps, gun in hand?

When was the last time YOU boarded a moving vessel that quickly, without being in a kevlar vest and a utility belt?

The fact that the capt. in question is anonymous adds to my skepticism. the cruiser's net coverage of this incident borders on being libelous, and certainly is less than illuminating: an unnamed source in county government hints that one of the local cops is a little "heavy handed". it is not determined that the "heavy handed" cop was indeed the one who boarded the boat.

I'd be interested in seeing the incident report on this discharge stop. If a weapon is unholstered, it's gotta be logged, and cross-ref'ed to the ticket issued.

[hummingway]

I find this shocking in so many ways. Probably the biggest shock is that some of you don't find something terribly wrong with police boarding a vessel with arms drawn and ready to fire when all that's happening is they are checking the state of a holding tank. Has your nation left sanity so far behind that this makes sense to you?

[Chief Engineer]

I am going to be like "Karnak, The Magnificent" here before this thread is closed. {It will be closed by the time I wake in the am}

You are a LEO and you stop a vessel...for any reason...and some guy disappears below......this puts LEOS on ALERT status......just like when you get stopped in a car.....don't reach for nuthin....turn off the engine
keep your hands on the steering wheel.....

I have been involved in boardings on BIG Yachts, Tugs, if I was off watch and we were going to be boarded, the Captain would get everybody up and into galley or main salon. The first thing they usually ask is How many are aboard.

[jram]

This is scary stuff for a foreign visitor to FL. We took a lot of time to research the regulations before we came as we had read such horror stories. We cruise with our y valves locked (to divert black water to holding tanks) and the seacocks closed - there is no provision for them to be locked or wire locked. There is absolutely no possibility that there could be an 'accidental' discharge unless accidental included the opening of the seacock and then switching on the discharge pump. There is no requirement for locking where my vessel is registered.

With what I am reading, I guess its only a matter of time till we are boarded and fined despite the fact that we meet all environmental regulations in our country of registry.

That said, we have only ever met with the politest of law enforcement officers - including the one in a prestigious city in south FL who, when questioned about anchoring regulations in the middle of the city, told us it was prohibited but we could go and anchor there for the day anyway (he would turn a blind eye) and enjoy our visit to his city! In the end, we chose the free dockage and had a grand time! We were glad to have the advice of this true ambassador!

Despite the negative posts and a certain amount of anxiety about what might and might not happen, I don't think we can paint all law enforcement officers with a negative image.

[sailorboy1]

Well I didn't read pages 2,3,4:

But I don't see what everyone is complaining about. Just like getting stopped in you car by the police, don't do anything that makes people with guns more nevous that they already are or those guns are going to get drawn (police mainl only get shot in times that they DIDN"T drawn their guns when they should have and they all know this). If you valve is suppose to locked and it isn't, well.............

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by hummingway

I find this shocking in so many ways. Probably the biggest shock is that some of you don't find something terribly wrong with police boarding a vessel with arms drawn and ready to fire when all that's happening is they are checking the state of a holding tank. Has your nation left sanity so far behind that this makes sense to you?

The War on Poop is a serious business

Your comments have been logged

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

It seems to me that unless he first asks if the MSD is permanently installed and receives an affirmative answer he has no right to come on board. If the vessel used a portapotty or some similar device the owner could have shown it to him at the gunnel the the officer would have had no right to board. I don't believe that in law enforcement you can assume that you have the right to board, but you must first determine if circumstances meet the requirements of the law that allows the action. You cannot take the action then later determine if it was justified. Does one shoot the suspect then determine if he presented a threat? Maybe in a military situation but I was not aware that Volusia County had declared a state of war against cruisers.

No, he just has to have a reasonable belief that there is a permanently mounted MSD. It is entirely reasonable to believe that a 36 foot cruiser has a permanently mounted MSD as virtually every 36 foot cruiser does in fact have such a device.

He definitely had the right to board.

He also had the right to write a ticket for not following the letter of the law with regard to securing the seacock. A more reasonable and wiser officer would have given a polite warning, but he did have the right to write the ticket.

But he did not have the right to threaten the cruisers with his pistol and behave like a bully. Threatening with a pistol is assault. It is a serious crime if not done with legal justification.

[smallyachts]

Originally Posted by bljones

So, TWENTY-SIX SECONDS after the helmsman sounds the alarm, the bacon-frying capt. turns around to see a cop goose-stepping down the companionway steps, gun in hand?

When was the last time YOU boarded a moving vessel that quickly, without being in a kevlar vest and a utility belt?

Were they traveling at a no wake speed? If so and the LEO came from astern, and , the crew is concentrating on whats ahead, in that case 15 seconds is enough time for someone with a Kevlar vest and utility belt to get onboard.

Have you ever seen boarding parties train? 26 seconds is a long time for them to get on board, ask one of our resident para-military law enforcement types, I am pretty sure they would smile and wonder what they were going to do with the extra 11 seconds.

These guys are trained to handle dangerous situations with professionalism and precision.

What they are not trained to do is deterine whether it is a dangerous situation or not, so they tend to err on the "everyone is potentially dangerous, so have a plan to kill them mode".

It is my understanding from a couple of acquaintances I have that work for the Coast Guard (not in Tampa) as well as local marine units in Tampa, that it is to enhance their training for the real thing, so they treat each and every vessel stop as a potentially dangerous situation.

We, the cruising community are used as training incidents for them.

If you don't believe that, go search in the Tampa papers for an incident where Tampa PD Marine units blocked access to Davis Islands, had the entire swat team on scene to handle a drunk on a houseboat about 3 months ago.

TPD escalated the situation, fired dozens of rounds of rubber bullets at a drunk which caused the drunk to get out a shotgun, he then fell off of the boat and shot himself in the arm.

Now you would have thought that the papers and tv stations would have been all over this.

But not a peep, in fact a great amount of denial if you ask an officer. But it happened, the instigator/victim spent a week in the hospital at the City's expense, but not a word in the press.

Because Tampa PD overreacted and saw an opportunity to stage a training scenario, and intimidate the boaters in the basin.

Yes, they were responding to a drunk incident, they just used excessive force, which is not uncommon if you read the papers.

Back in the days of Andy Taylor and Mayberry, you did not see law enforcement wearing military type equipment, officers were friendly and approachable.

Now I have to look twice to see if it is law enforcement or a member of the military. And frankly I am wary to approach them to ask a question out of fear they will misunderstand the reason for approach and respond with deadly force.

This is directed strictly towards local LEO, not the Coast Guard, with only one exception we have always been treated with professionalism and courtesy by the CG. Not so with local LEO.

[Dockhead]

Here's a case where a law enforcement officer was charged with aggravated assault -- that is a serious prison time felony -- for pointing his gun at a motorist without legal justification:

Escambia Deputy Arrested, Charged With Pointing Gun At Two People : NorthEscambia.com

“'After an investigation conducted by the Pensacola Police Department, a warrant was issued and served on Deputy Dejoie today, charging him with two counts of aggravated assault,' Ted Roy, spokesperson for the ECSO, said Tuesday afternoon. Bond was set at $500.
'The investigation determined Dejoie could not adequately justify to the satisfaction of the detective and the State Attorney’s Office his actions in pointing the firearm,' said Pensacola Assistant Chief Chip W. Simmons."

[smj]

Serve and protect? Must have been a dream I had.

[Troubadour52993]

The USA has become a police state. Just like a dictatorship, many of the jurisdictions are benign. Some are not. We live at the largess of those with uniforms and guns; if you don't believe this read Amazon.com: Three Felonies a Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent (9781594032554): Harvey A. Silverglate: Books

Over the last two years there have been numerous incidents of people taking video of police abuse. The standard procedure is now for the police officer to tell the person to put down the video camera/cell phone or to move along, even if they are standing on their own property. They are then promptly arrested for failure to obey the officer/resisting arrest. The video conveniently dissapears while in evidence and there is nothing to dispute the officer's incident report.

In general, the USCG and Customs officials I have dealt with have been professional. The local LEOs have been a bit more heavy handed. Of course they can find justification for boarding and justification for anything they do. Writing citations are what they do. "This American Life" #414, "Right to Remain Silent" details what happened to a cop who didn't meet his "quota". It's not pretty.

There were at least 6 different LEOs cruising around Lake Worth Inlet with enough hardware at taxpayer expense to fill the cruising kitty for the rest of my life. Just another reason to get cruising and get away from all of that.