Country of Residence of Cruisers ?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I dont beleive any EU passport has ones address, a passport is a request to provide a citizen with free passage, that all.



Reading the dutch tax law in English , it would seem to be on a par with many other countries, inclusing the UK and Germany. Its not that easy to escape your tax responsibilities.

Dave

One has 'Tax Responsibilities' if one has an address in the 'Home Country'... visits regularly and makes use of their services/benefits etc...
However... if you have none and use none of the above that responsibility ceases to exist... HM Revenue.. like most countries requires information to be supplied to it from various sources to try... and I mean try... to function efficiently..
As there is no info forthcoming about me re.. Address (Town Hall/Census), Employers, Social Security, Doctors etc... I do not exist until I next set foot in England and re-acquire all the above..
I think your pronouncments relate to your situation... but most certainly not to mine or maybe a few others...
I've not worked in the UK since '04... and even then it was for a season... PAYE was deducted by my employer and at the end I jumped on a plane to the US...
before that it was in '99 for 10mths... never had a problem...

[goboatingnow]

I got the notion from a few meetings with the inland revenue before going cruising for 5 years, working in middle east and Europe. If you are non resident (not an exact thing to define!) then you will not be taxed on earnings arising outside the UK. you should. however, be paying tax in the country where you earned it. If you are non resident it's not possible to do the UK self assessment form online to declare income, you need to buy some 3rd party software. There's a page where you declare foriegn income which seems to change every year.

You didnt answer my issue, If you receive income from a UK source you are liable to UK taxes unless you are not a Tax resident ( ordinary or otherwise). The self assesment issue is not the issue. You pay such taxes in your country of Tax residence. Floating about on a boat does not make you a non-resident. ( for tax purposes). For example having an income from the Uk while on a boat, would be generally grounds to consider you a resident for tax purposes. If however as you stated your income was primarily coming from Europe or the middle east, you might be granted non residency status. ( it depends).

What all this is to, it that merely the romantic notion of sailing into the sunset, does not absolve you of your taxs. Many sailers harbour the notion that as a citizen of the sea they are removed from the need to interact with the state and are somehow stateless. The reality is far different

Dave

Dave

[conachair]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You didnt answer my issue, If you receive income from a UK source you are liable to UK taxes unless you are not a Tax resident ( ordinary or otherwise).

I was non resident. Non resident is the key - if you are non resident for tax then it is the country in which you carry out the duties which is important. Doesn't matter where the company paying you is based.

You pay such taxes in your country of Tax residence. Floating about on a boat does not make you a non-resident. ( for tax purposes).

YES IT DOES!
As long as the boat is floating not in any particular country for more than that particular countries threshold then you can be non resident anywhere. But frowned upon I think, more so if you earn lots and lots of money.

For example having an income from the Uk while on a boat, would be generally grounds to consider you a resident for tax purposes.

Again not the case!!
The key terms are domocile and resident. Changing domicile is a big deal. Even more so in the States I think. In UK resident for tax purposes is mainly driven by the number of days you spend in the country, stya out for average of 270 a year but allowed 180 in any one year, but it's not as cut and dried as that. But anyone can have an income from the UK. Chance are you'll get taxed on it in the uk as well

If however as you stated your income was primarily coming from Europe or the middle east, you might be granted non residency status. ( it depends).

Where you earn some money has got nothing to do with residence.

What all this is to, it that merely the romantic notion of sailing into the sunset, does not absolve you of your taxs. Many sailers harbour the notion that as a citizen of the sea they are removed from the need to interact with the state and are somehow stateless. The reality is far different

It can be done, to an extent anyway. I was non resident in any country for half a decade. Not strictly legal and where it really falls down is when it comes to state benifits, pension or health care. Then you are own your own. Possibly quite rightly too.

[goboatingnow]

conachair, your post is not based on any valid interpretation of UK tax law, Merely not getting a demand for tax , in itself is not an indication that you are absolved from tax. Its a self assesment system, not a let them find me system.

"As long as the boat is floating not in any particular country for more than that particular countries threshold then you can be non resident anywhere"

Residency has many meaning but is mainly in connection with tax status, In the Uk for example you can be resident or Ordinary resident for tax purposes, Merely being out of the country is only one of the many citeria that can be applied to determine tax residency status. In general you usually have to prove that you are an "Ordinary Resident" of another country to show that you are not a tax resident elsewhere. For example if you are a UK person or a UK flagged boat, then you wouldnt normally be judged non-resident, youre merely on holiday.

In UK resident for tax purposes is mainly driven by the number of days you spend in the country, stya out for average of 270 a year but allowed 180 in any one year, but it's not as cut and dried as that. But anyone can have an income from the UK. Chance are you'll get taxed on it in the uk as well

see above, and anyway youre agreeing with me. Residency is not soley nor mainly decided by time out of the country.

Where you earn some money has got nothing to do with residence.

Actually it does, If for example your main source of income was determined to be from the UK. You could be considered a (Tax) resident though not neccessarily a Ordinary Resident. Domicile is a whole other case. but in general where you are domiciled is where you are considered to be an "Ordinary Resident".

It can be done, to an extent anyway. I was non resident in any country for half a decade. Not strictly legal and where it really falls down is when it comes to state benifits, pension or health care. Then you are own your own. Possibly quite rightly too.

oh, I have no doubt it can be done and usually as you say "Not strictly legal" as in the many under the radar in spain for example. But im talking about a strict interpretation of your responsibilites, not what you can "get away with".

Dave

[Kettlewell]

Back to the OP. For most of us we retain domicile for tax purposes in the original country we sailed from. In other words, if you carry a US passport you should be paying US taxes on your worldwide income. There are rules on not having to pay if you've been out of the country for some long period of time. A lot of us also want to maintain things like driver's licenses, addresses for bank accounts, US documentation for our boats, etc. All of these things will require an address in some state, and I bet that state will want to tax you as well, if they have taxes on the type of things you do. Can you avoid taxes with creative schemes? Sure. Is it a wise idea for most of us? No! I've met some folks out there who told me they could never return to the US because of tax or other consequences upon return, and it seemed rather sad to me. They are permanent vagabonds without a country. On the other hand, I'm kind of interested in those who find a new country that they like and will accept them. That I can understand better than always hiding from the tax man.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Back to the OP. For most of us we retain domicile for tax purposes in the original country we sailed from. In other words, if you carry a US passport you should be paying US taxes on your worldwide income. There are rules on not having to pay if you've been out of the country for some long period of time. A lot of us also want to maintain things like driver's licenses, addresses for bank accounts, US documentation for our boats, etc. All of these things will require an address in some state, and I bet that state will want to tax you as well, if they have taxes on the type of things you do. Can you avoid taxes with creative schemes? Sure. Is it a wise idea for most of us? No! I've met some folks out there who told me they could never return to the US because of tax or other consequences upon return, and it seemed rather sad to me. They are permanent vagabonds without a country. On the other hand, I'm kind of interested in those who find a new country that they like and will accept them. That I can understand better than always hiding from the tax man.

The bold only applies to "earned income", not interest income, dividends, pensions, social security, etc.

[barnakiel]

This is sorted out by each country's laws. Some countries have a clear definition, others not.

By spending to much time in any single place you can become a tax resident there with some consequences.

In some countries you can apply for residency as specified by each country's laws.

Being a resident in one country and a citizen of another may, or may not, be forbidden by specific countries.

b.

[annk]

Interesting stuff!

We left the UK 8 years ago. Before we left we spoke to our accountants and the tax authority. They advised us to apply for ' non-resident' for tax purposes. This we did and were duly awarded the paperwork.

This means we can only return to the UK for up to 165(I think) nights in any one year. We have no property or business interest in the UK which made the tax office very happy.

We pay UK taxes on any UK based pensions. We pay tax in the country where we earn funds as we travel, or not depending on the situation!

There have never been any issues because we live on our boat.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

conachair, your post is not based on any valid interpretation of UK tax law,

It is possible to be tax resident in two countries at the same time. It is also possible to not be tax resident anywhere, although this is less common.

Expat FAQs

You do not even have to become tax resident anywhere else, as you can be a permanent traveller instead (explained below).

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...-business.html

I'm giving up now. Luckily I took my advise from the taxman, not an internet forum.

Fair winds and may the current be from behind

[savoir]

That's all right then. For a while I had thought you might be one of those dreaded invalid interpretators.

I hear they're a shifty lot.

[bewitched]

I think it was the Greek Philosopher Diogenes who first said:

"I am a citizen of the World"

When I was younger I thought that was way cool.

I found out that most immigration officers don't share the same view......

[barnakiel]

Yes. One can be a tax resident in more than one country.

When two countries have signed an agreement on avoiding double taxation this should not happen.

Otherwise, all depends on tax laws in each respective country.

b.

[barnakiel]

The above said I will just only add that tax residence is not same with residence per se.

Two different (if at times overlapping) subjects.

b.

[cat man do]

You can be classed a NON resident if you spend:-
More than half of the year outside of Australia
*Have a place of abode outside of Australia
Residency - the 183 day test

For more general information about residency, read Residency – overview.
For information on the other three residency tests, read:
Residency – the resides test
Residency – the domicile test
Residency – the superannuation test
Examples of residents and foreign residents.

*Can a yacht be your abode?
This bit I really had to hunt for, the easily found definitions say no it can't, but digging through the law section I found this bit of ATO legislation that says yes

TD 92/158 - Income tax: capital gains: can the following comprise a 'dwelling' and therefore be eligible for exemption as a main residence (i) a structure built underground? (ii) a yacht? (iii) a tent? (As at 21 April 2010)
A Yacht
3. A yacht may, under certain circumstances, constitute a mobile home or houseboat and therefore, a 'dwelling' for exemption purposes. Provided that the level of facilities is such as to make the yacht habitable, the yacht will be accepted as a 'dwelling'.

And From the Queensland Residential Tenancies and Rooming Accommodation Act 2008

Chapter 1 Preliminary
Part 3 Interpretation
Page 30 2008 Act No. 73
(2) Premises, for a residential tenancy, also include—
(a) a caravan or its site, or both the caravan and site; and
(b) a manufactured home in, or intended to be situated in, a
moveable dwelling park or its site, or both the
manufactured home and site; and
(c) a houseboat.

[otherthan]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think it all depends on how you present yourself and what your past 5-10 year history illustrates.

As a long term live aboard I give a mailing address and when asked about permanent address I entered “No Fixed address”… saying the yacht is presently in ????.

No one has ever question the legitimacy of that answer once they understand I live on my boat.

For a long time, I have never worked or resided in my national country, held a bank account there or even maintained a driver’s license or storage locker. According to tax lawyers this seems to fulfill the legal intent of being a non-resident.

Where people seem to get in trouble is when they maintain properties and business interests in their country of origin, indicating it is their intent to one day return.


I think today, all governments with computerized tracking of nationals give the revenue people an easier read of intent and so it is important to remain consistent in supporting your non-residency claim if challenged.

I do not understand...pleas help
if I live on my boat and travel the world,,I need a pasport!!
but once the pasport expiers if I dont reside anywhere how do I get a pasport???
if I have no pasport how can I travel the world???
I wish to be a resident of the world..is it possible without the risk of having my boat seized for not having a pasport??