Castro dead at 90

[boatman61]

And you have no idea what I've experienced..
Life in Pakistan in the 50's, 60's to today is not that much different..
Civil Government gets too corrupt and prices go through the roof.. Martial Law takes over and in a short time things stabilise.. then outside pressure is exerted to restart 'Democracy'.. a few years later the corruption is suffocating the people again.. cue Martial Law.. and so it goes in a circle.. we are about due for another Ayub Khan or Zia soon I'd say..
The only thing that's kept Pakistan's head above water is the fact its strategically important to the USA who pump inordinate funds and arms to maintain control/influence going back as far as I can remember.. 60+yrs.
The quality of politician is irrelevant.. as long as they're 'YES' men/women.
Its the Natural Order as Weavis likes to say..
Go visit the Favela's in Brazil.

[John Holbrook]

It's nice that you have seen Pakistan, I spend 19 years in Asia as an expat and have seen it to.

You talking about outside influences on venezuela when the problems are internal.

You compare people not being able to afford fuel in north England with what is happening in Venezuela.

Sorry but you have no idea of what is going on here in venezuela and castros legacy.

Originally Posted by boatman61

I'm talking about outside influences effecting a countries ability to function..
Venezuela's being battered and embargoed left right and centre.. lately even by others who share their continent who have crap human rights and economic histories past and present.. Argentina and Brazil to name just 2 in the SA cabal.. who are doubtless having their arms twisted behind the scenes..
All the oil reserves in the world are useless if doors are closed to you while everyone weeps crocodile tears..

As for the food, elec, medicines etc.. try the N of England for folks going hungry for lack of work and relying on food banks.. freeze to death in winter because they cant afford the expensive fuel.. I hear inequality like this exists even in God's own Country.. the US of A..
Many countries around the world have no domestic power for a few hours a day during the working week in the cities as the grids cannot maintain the demands when industry comes on line.. for example in PECHS in Karachi we only had elec between 1800 to 1200 the following day.. the 6hrs power we lost was enjoyed by other parts of the city.
Just another day of the Have's screwing the Have Nots..

[boatman61]

Ahahahaaa... so now its gone from Chavez to Castro..
Maduro is not either so casting bricks at the dead is a waste of space.
If you really believe that its nothing to do with external pressures..
Bully for you.. and I'll return your comment about me..
Bolivarian Socialism does sit comfortably on capitalist shoulders any more comfortable than Castro Socialism did when he kicked out Batista, the Mafia and stuffed up some US political incomes..
But hey.. what does a Paki know..

[Celestialsailor]

I believe John was referring to your take on Venezuela. Every country has different scenarios. There are too many influences to cookie cutter all countries.

[John Holbrook]

Boatman I'm happy for you to challenge me but please be curtious enough to read my posts first.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Ahahahaaa... so now its gone from Chavez to Castro..

This thread and my comments always tied back to Chavez.

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

Venezuela's Chavez followed Castro' formula and was tutored by Castro.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Bolivarian Socialism does sit comfortably on capitalist shoulders any more comfortable than Castro Socialism did when he kicked out Batista, the Mafia and stuffed up some US political incomes..

You don't know your history, Bolivar didn't sit comfortably on socialist shoulders either...

In an unsympathetic biography titled Bolívar y Ponte, Simón, published in the New American Cyclopedia, Karl Marx criticized much of Bolívar's life. Marx begins saying that Bolívar was born to a family of "creole nobility in Venezuela" and that similar to the "custom of wealthy Americans of those times, at the early age of 14 he was sent to Europe". Throughout Marx's piece, he explains how Bolívar abandoned his troops multiple times as well. Marx also explains how Bolívar had to be persuaded by his cousin Ribas to return to fight against the Spanish after staying at Cartagena. Marx then explains that after arriving in Caracas in 1813, Bolívar's "dictatorship soon proved a military anarchy, leaving the most important affairs in the hands of favorites, who squandered the finances of the country, and then resorted to odious means in order to restore them". At the conclusion of the biography, Marx uses Ducoudray Holstein's description of Bolívar.[37]

Originally Posted by boatman61

But hey.. what does a Paki know..

My granddad left India in the 50s and aways said it was so odd that India and Pakistan wanted their independence from the Brits and after they got it so many of them wanted to live in Britian under the British system.

Can't say that I would see a Paki as specially qualified to comment on Castro and his legacy especially if they have seen it first hand.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

Boatman you simply have no idea what you are talking about. Yes some people in the north of England may not be able to afford fuel but in venezuela 80%+ of the population have problems getting food and other basics. I see p pole loose 10 or 20kgs from not eating properly.

It's not outside influences that destroyed Venezuela's gold mining, tourism, iron ore, manufacturing and agriculture industries, it is nationalization and corruption. For example a five star foreign owned hotel employing hundreds of people were nationalized and now are total run down, managed by chavistas and maybe employ 20% of the people they once did.

Farmers told to sell corn for 5c a kg just stop planting. Now venezuela imports most of its food.

Meanwhile private airports here are full of private jets for the lucky few so they can fly in toilet paper, car tyres, cooking oil and other stuff that's unavailable along with caviar and salmon and spend time at n their luxury properties overseas.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about. Sorry.

https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/...ice-revolution

While you are right what you say about Venezuela for an individual it's meaningless if one has some thousands or millions of starving or freezing fellow citizens so for a country to be considered as a civilized one the count should be zero.. IMHO
Back to sailing now?

BR Teddy

[boatman61]

[QUOTE=John Holbrook;2271610) You don't know your history, Bolivar didn't sit comfortably on socialist shoulders either...

In an unsympathetic biography titled Bolívar y Ponte, Simón, published in the New American Cyclopedia, Karl Marx criticized much of Bolívar's life. Marx begins saying that Bolívar was born to a family of "creole nobility in Venezuela" and that similar to the "custom of wealthy Americans of those times, at the early age of 14 he was sent to Europe". Throughout Marx's piece, he explains how Bolívar abandoned his troops multiple times as well. Marx also explains how Bolívar had to be persuaded by his cousin Ribas to return to fight against the Spanish after staying at Cartagena. Marx then explains that after arriving in Caracas in 1813, Bolívar's "dictatorship soon proved a military anarchy, leaving the most important affairs in the hands of favorites, who squandered the finances of the country, and then resorted to odious means in order to restore them". At the conclusion of the biography, Marx uses Ducoudray Holstein's description of Bolívar.[37]
QUOTE]

I was not going that far back in time.. so skip the history lesson..
Economic shocks in the 1980s and 1990s led to several political crises, including the deadly Caracazo riots of 1989, two attempted coups in 1992, and the impeachment of President Carlos Andrés Pérez for embezzlement of public funds in 1993. A collapse in confidence in the existing parties saw the 1998 election of former coup-involved career officer Hugo Chávez and the launch of the Bolivarian Revolution, beginning with a 1999 Constituent Assembly to write a new Constitution of Venezuela. This new constitution officially changed the name of the country to República Bolivariana de Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela).

[John Holbrook]

No one is saying that any country has got zero issues but I'm an saying venezuela which followed Castro's ideology has reduced a functioning developing ecomony that wasn't perfect to mess with 700% inflation and the majority of the population not having basic foods, medicines, etc. I live in venezuela, I see it everyday from the window of my armoured car.

Sailing sure, did you know that venezuela see to be a huge sailors paradise. In the carribean hurricane season there were hundreds of cruising yachts anchored off Puerto la Cruz where I am. Sailors and ten ask me if they should visit to get work done. Labor is cheap here at 2c an hour. I always tell them no because there are no parts, the skilled labour has left the country, pirates are a big risk with many deaths reported for local and foreign boats and you may not get your boat out without paying money. A Brit here recently got hit for USD15k.

Hopefully it will return to the paradise it once was. It's a beautiful country with beautiful people.

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

While you are right what you say about Venezuela for an individual it's meaningless if one has some thousands or millions of starving or freezing fellow citizens so for a country to be considered as a civilized one the count should be zero.. IMHO
Back to sailing now?

BR Teddy

[boatman61]

Regarding the Indians and Pakistani's getting out and heading for Africa, the Caribe and the UK..
They smelt the Darjeeling and realised they been conned by wealthy self interested career politicians like Jinnah, Nehru and others..
The only one worth his salt.. Ghandi.. was assassinated by a rival Indian politician.. lets call it the JFK incident of India.

[John Holbrook]

You brought up Bolivar and now say you aren't interested in history.

It's great you googled Chavez, my five year old can do that too


[/QUOTE]



I was not going that far back in time.. so skip the history lesson..
Economic shocks in the 1980s and 1990s led to several political crises, including the deadly Caracazo riots of 1989, two attempted coups in 1992, and the impeachment of President Carlos Andrés Pérez for embezzlement of public funds in 1993. A collapse in confidence in the existing parties saw the 1998 election of former coup-involved career officer Hugo Chávez and the launch of the Bolivarian Revolution, beginning with a 1999 Constituent Assembly to write a new Constitution of Venezuela. This new constitution officially changed the name of the country to República Bolivariana de Venezuela (Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela).

[/QUOTE]

[boatman61]

[QUOTE=John Holbrook;2271647]You brought up Bolivar and now say you aren't interested in history.

It's great you googled Chavez, my five year old can do that too



Well bully for your five year old.. must take after Mom..
I mentioned Bolivarian Socialism.. you dragged up with Simon Bolivar.
As for Chavez.. who needs to Google him.. I watch the news from all quarters and reach my own conclusions.
Don't sweat it to much though.. you'll be doing a runner before the **** really hits the fan..

[John Holbrook]

Similar to what happened in venezuela under Castro's protégées Chavez and Maduro. Most of the skilled labour has gone. My wife and I were in Equador recently and meet a Venezuelan lawyer working as a waiter.

Thousands of Venezuelan petroleum engineers were fired by Chavez from the state oil company pdvsa for signing a referendum against him circa 10 years ago. Thousands of them are living in Katy, Texas.

Originally Posted by boatman61

Regarding the Indians and Pakistani's getting out and heading for Africa, the Caribe and the UK..
They smelt the Darjeeling and realised they been conned by wealthy self interested career politicians like Jinnah, Nehru and others..
The only one worth his salt.. Ghandi.. was assassinated by a rival Indian politician.. lets call it the JFK incident of India.

[John Holbrook]

It seems you don't know that a Bolivarian socialism is the economic methodogy of the Bolivarian Revolution which was started by Simone Bolivar. All related my unlearned friend

Don't sweat it... hmmm that comment is either callous or ignorant Boatman, it's not nice seeing kids and adults starving and dying because they can't get basic medicines. Maybe you have a cold heart but this stuff does bother me.

What does "bully for you" mean?

Originally Posted by boatman61

Well bully for your five year old.. must take after Mom..
I mentioned Bolivarian Socialism.. you dragged up with Simon Bolivar.
As for Chavez.. who needs to Google him.. I watch the news from all quarters and reach my own conclusions.
Don't sweat it to much though.. you'll be doing a runner before the **** really hits the fan..

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

Similar to what happened in venezuela under Castro's protégées Chavez and Maduro. Most of the skilled labour has gone. My wife and I were in Equador recently and meet a Venezuelan lawyer working as a waiter.

Thousands of Venezuelan petroleum engineers were fired by Chavez from the state oil company pdvsa for signing a referendum against him circa 10 years ago. Thousands of them are living in Katy, Texas.

No worries and nothing strange there.. I've worked alongside Uni folks who've been dustbin men, barstaff and waiters in the UK..
Sometimes having an education can suck.. if there's not enough status white collar jobs to go round.
However being a Tory I tend to follow Maggies advice and get on my bike to where there's work.. you make it sound like that lawyers deprived..
As for Katy, Texas.. musta been a real one horse town before the influx of all those thousands..

.

[weavis]

Unlearned and poorly educated as I am in recent political history, Might we return to the subject in hand without the rancour that this exchange is unfolding?