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27-07-2017, 08:42
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#121
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Quote:
Originally Posted by boatpoker
Much as I agree with your thoughts .... How many UK vessels land in Belgium in a year ? what is the economic impact ? Maybe boaters are just not a big enough group for either UK or Belgium to give a damn.
Plus ... their chocolate stinks. It could not compare to pre-EC Cadbury's before they had to change the formula to meet the EC definition of chocolate.
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Belgium used to be a popular destination for UK East Coast yachtsmen -- it's not far away across the narrow part of the North Sea and has three quite enchanting ports.
I'm sure the economic impact is small, but the aggravation surely creates political consequences out of proportion to this. Why are they doing it? It's just nasty, unfriendly, and violates the principle of comity -- which in the maritime context holds that states respect each others local rules with respect to their own vessels to the extent it doesn't create some kind of gross violation of public policy. The UK authority could start fining Belgian yachtsmen for, for example, not having ship's bells or life rafts (required on any vessel over 40 feet IIRC in the UK). They don't do this because Belgian law doesn't require it, and it would be an unreasonable burden to require Belgian vessels to re-equip according to the UK rules every time they sail to the UK. It's exactly the same principle why the Dutch and French and Germans don't mind your having red fuel as long as you prove that you paid tax on it -- they recognize that there's no white fuel in UK harbors and so apply the principle of comity.
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27-07-2017, 15:35
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#122
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Moderator and Certifiable Refitter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: South of 43 S, Australia
Boat: C.L.O.D.
Posts: 20,305
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
Correct, and that is why the Belgians are not fining for unpaid taxes. They are fining just for traces of red fuel, which is illegal per se -- that is, irrespective of whether taxes have been paid or not, under Belgian law.
It's a rather gross violation of comity -- and important principle in maritime setting where ships go from state to state and where it would be difficult to comply with different local regulations in every state. But comity is not obligatory.
The UK could retaliate by refusing to grant comity to Belgian vessels.
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Thanks for the explanation, that makes it clearer (no pun intended).
Sounds crazy...
__________________
All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangereous men, for they may act their dreams with open eyes, to make it possible. T.E. Lawrence
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28-07-2017, 00:33
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#123
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Essex
Boat: Outremer 40/43
Posts: 105
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
It would be good if we had some members from Belgium who could have a look at the various harbours etc. Obviously there are likely to be very few UK boats in Belgium. But does that make a difference?
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28-07-2017, 00:59
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#124
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Looks like they might have backed down...
Belgium - Page 2
Quote:
FYI I have just received an email from nieuwpoort marina stating:
Dear English sailors,
We just got the confirmation of our Belgium government that, from now on, there will be no control anymore towards red Diesel for sailors. In September, there will be a European conference, where the European ministers will take a common position on this matter. Know that the marinas in Belgium like to welcome all UK sailors, in the past, now and for the future.
You can forward this message to all our fellow yachtsman.
With kind regards,
Maarten
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28-07-2017, 03:00
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#125
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,427
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Do you trust the marina because its a E500 gamble if they are wrong.
Damage is probably already done for this years sailing season.
I intend to vote with my feet and we are going to stay in English waters this year we were anyway, but the Belgiques don't need to know that.
Pete
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28-07-2017, 21:49
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#126
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Essex
Boat: Outremer 40/43
Posts: 105
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
I have been emailing various Belgian marinas and alsomthe local CCI.
I have not had much by way of a reply... The email from Maartine is interesting.
How to check it's true?
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29-07-2017, 03:38
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#127
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete7
Do you trust the marina because its a E500 gamble if they are wrong.
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Far too far north for me
But they do seem to be trying to sort it..
Red Diesel Use in Belgium | CA
http://www.theca.org.uk/system/files...Ambassador.pdf
Quote:
Considering the above elements we were informed that in view of the next meeting of the
Committee on Excise Duty currently planned for 18/09/2017 no further fines will be
levied until that meeting.
H.E. Rudolf Huygelen
Ambassador of the Kingdom of Belgium to the United Kingdom
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29-07-2017, 04:17
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#128
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair
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A stay of execution only until 18 August, and also -- they advise TWO YEARS of fuel receipts showing 100% duty paid.
I certainly was not paying 100% duty when I was on a mooring without shore power, and using diesel fuel mostly for heat and electrical power.
So I will be sailing right by Belgium again this year -- if I end up sailing near the coast at all.
Belgian waters extend right out into the TSS so I do hope that they aren't boarding vessels on innocent passage.
I got boarded in May by the Dutch Coast Guard while sailing offshore, more than 24 hours away from my last port. So such boardings do happen. The Dutchies were extremely friendly and seemed to be only interested in passports and boat registration.
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29-07-2017, 04:26
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#129
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cruiser
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Probably in an anchorage or a boatyard..
Boat: Ebbtide 33' steel cutter
Posts: 5,030
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead
A stay of execution only until 18 August,
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18/09/2017 - September, so on hold until they decide to be nice or otherwise.
Bit late really, a handful of avoidable incidents and the damage is done.
Still, anyone bold enough to go should get a warm welcome
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29-07-2017, 06:47
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#130
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Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Denmark (Winter), Helsinki (Summer); Cruising the Baltic Sea this year!
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 33,764
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair
. . . .
Still, anyone bold enough to go should get a warm welcome
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I've always found the Belgian harbors and yachtsmen to be a very friendly and welcoming lot.
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02-08-2017, 03:44
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#131
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,427
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
So the odds on 27 member states all agreeing on how to legislate the use of red diesel across the EU and reach an agreement is?
Pete
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02-08-2017, 12:58
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#132
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,324
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
The 27 member states have agreed on this long ago. There's just one country not applying the law...
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02-08-2017, 13:09
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#133
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Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 18,427
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
Oh they are applying the law, just not the spirit of the law, but then they have a history of not surrendering to European aggressors.
Pete
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02-08-2017, 13:10
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#134
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Switzerland
Boat: So many boats to choose from. Would prefer something that is not an AWB, and that is beachable...
Posts: 1,324
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Re: Belgian customs at it again
The law is that you are not allowed to red diesel for propulsion. It's that simple.
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