420: Lagoon 420s Used on the Rise ?

[asb]

I did a search in yachtworld and astonished to see 25 Lagoon 420s' for sale. The boat has been introduced only 2 years ago and the numbers seem to be very high.

Also some of them have very attractive prices. Few of the 2008 models have asking prices just above 300k euros. This means with a proper bargaining 250-275k Euros can be achievable.

Does anyone know why the owners (virtually) dumping 420s'? Can the introduction of the Lagoon 400 be one of the reasons? Or the sluggish sailing performance? Or the crisis?

[Intentional Drifter]

As someone who signed on to buy a 420 very early (before the first hull splashed), but then backed out of it (after seeing, and sailing, a real one), I have my theories. I've also kept up with the reports from the various owners participating in the 420 owner's group.

Some of them are people who have simply finished with their cruises and are ready to move on. No doubt some of them have finished early due to the economic problems that have affected many of us (yours truly, included).

The 420 has simply not lived up to the promises made by Lagoon. Early on, Lagoon was telling us that it would motor under battery power alone for 4 hours. The reality is no where near that. They were saying that it would regenerate the propulsion banks -- roughly 8 hours of sailing at 6 knots would refill the bank (assuming you weren't pulling a lot more out of it at the same time). The reality is that there have been many mixed reports about regeneration. Some owners manage to see "some" regeneration, although nowhere near what was promised. Others have seen very little, if any, regeneration. When regenerating, there is a definite performance penalty. Lagoon initially said that it would be somewhere between 1/2 knot to 1 knot; the reality has been almost always at least 1 knot and typically around 2. This also is related to the sailing qualities.

Lagoon initially said that the boat would weigh (using the new Euro definitions) in at 28,000 pounds. That was very heavy, but they promised it would be the "honest" weight. It actually came in at just under 34,000 pounds. Another 6000, but with no increased sail area or other changes to try and compensate.

Lagoon initially said that the boat would motor using about 1/2 the fuel consumption of conventional diesels. Well, it turns out that the big 21 kw genset (although you could buy it with a smaller, 13 kw genset, they strongly recommended against it as being insufficient), when you're motoring it is running at full output, using a bit over 3 gallons an hour, according to Onan, the manufacturer. That is actually more that a couple of 40 hp Yanmars running at cruising speed -- quite a bit more.

The hybrid system is quite complicated with lots of converters, cooling fans and controller circuit boards. There have been a number of problems and Lagoon has put out several revisions. To their credit, Lagoon has continued to support these boats even after the warranty was over. At some point, though, they're going to stop that. They simply can't do it indefinitely. Maybe they already have, I don't know.

The 420 is simply not a very good sail boat. All that accommodation space (and, it is a wonderful floating condo, very nice) has resulted in a boat with high windage, fat hulls, and big flat and fat transoms. There's not a lot of sail area, even with the gennaker. Most owners are reporting that it will do 6 to 7 knots only when the wind is 20+ on a reach. For a cat, that's pretty slow. If you want to regenerate, too, then take another knot or 2 off of that.

So, my guess is that at least of the owners have simply had enough. While the diesel boats solve many of the problem associated with the hybrid system, the diesels don't solve the sailing qualities.

ID

[asb]

Thanks for the very detailed info.

As you have said performance is really a big issue for 420s'. I have seen one but not sailed it. Comfortwise she is really very nice.

I found a video of a 420 atlantic crossing in youtube. As you can see the instruments clearly, she is sailing 5.2 knots with 17 knot windspeed. Very bad performance indeed!!!

YouTube - Trans-Atlantic crossing by catamaran

[planetoftheapes]

There are 50 Lagoon 410s for sale and 40 Lagoon 440 for sale on Yacht World. This must mean the Lagoon 420 performs better as there are only 25 for sale.

The Lagoon 420 diesel version is a lovely, very comfortable cruising boat with reasonable performance. She is amazingly comfortable in heavy weather.

I've not sailed a hybrid, but I don't hear their owners complaining much about performance, just enjoying the comfortable cruising.

John

[sailvi767]

I believe a lot more 410's and 440's were produced.

[asb]

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

There are 50 Lagoon 410s for sale and 40 Lagoon 440 for sale on Yacht World. This must mean the Lagoon 420 performs better as there are only 25 for sale.

Those are the 2008 production stats from a Lagoon publication. There were no numbers for the 420, but it must be around 100, I guess.
# Lagoon 380, 500+ boats
# Lagoon 410, 280+ boats
# Lagoon 440, 250+ boats

The reason I started this thread is to hear the opinions of the owners and knowledgable people about the 420s'. There are few used 420s' with interesting prices at the moment. I haven't sailed it but visited one, which I liked the layout and comfort very much.

The sluggish sail performance or the problems with the hybrid version is well known. Maybe with some modifications it is possible to correct it to an acceptable level.

Installing a square top headsail like L421 and a gennaker, making the boat lighter (without an A/C, Watermaker, instead of a generator installing solar panels etc.) are the options I can think of.

As I am interested in the L400 and Lipari 41, a modified L420 could well be the third option. Who knows!!

[ess105]

ID - you're twisting a few numbers around here and giving false conclusions. Let me correct a couple of point :

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

... when you're motoring it is running at full output, using a bit over 3 gallons an hour, according to Onan, the manufacturer. That is actually more that a couple of 40 hp Yanmars running at cruising speed -- quite a bit more.

1) The 20kW generator NEVER runs at full output as it has breakers that prevent that.
2) Motoring does not blow the breakers
3) Onan spec sheets claim 1.9 gallons per hour at maximum load
4) My own analysis over a period of several months usage showed my average consumption to be 0.82 US gallons per hour. This did include some charging although this was largely limited to times when we ran our washing machine so we were fairly loaded. The rest of the time we get by on solar.

Your conclusion of 3 gallons per hour is way off.

Originally Posted by Intentional Drifter

Most owners are reporting that it will do 6 to 7 knots only when the wind is 20+ on a reach. For a cat, that's pretty slow. If you want to regenerate, too, then take another knot or 2 off of that.

In 20+ on a reach we'll do 7-8 knots while regenerating. On passage the regen handles ALL our power needs so we don't have to run engines or gensets to keep our equipment running (including microwaves, etc.) which come in handy on the big trips.

This is still not brilliant for a cat but it's enough for our floating condo. We spend only a fraction of our time sailing so the extra time it takes to get somewhere is a small price to pay for the comfort of our arrival and stay. This boat works very well for us.

[VERTIGO]

I also have been watching to see how this plays out. I print out all 440 Lagoons and 420 Lagoons every 3 months to keep an eye on the prices as I get closer to buying. Watch to see how fast they sell, time on market, price drops. 3 months ago there was not a 440 under 499,000 now there are 6 rangeing from $396,000 (used to be $376,00 but the $$$ is soo weak) to $480,000. There are 11 420's for under $500 but have not really seen a major price drop.

I have to assume that the shoppers for these boats are going to be a bit like myself, I will buy the 1 or 2 year older 440 for the same or even cheaper than a 420. Have not really put a dollar figure on what the price difference would have to be for me to go with the 420 but think as the 440's continue to decline, and even more come on the market the 420's are also going to have to compete with Sales.
In addition the 400 is not going to help the situation either, once those start to hit the market it should get really interesting in the market.

To me the key is the 440 staying up in price and keeping a price difference, but with them so low, and so many of them, it is going to have a huge affect on 400 - 440's. IMO I keep watching and see how it all unfolds.

[Intentional Drifter]

RE: Onan genset fuel consumption, I stand corrected -- it is 1.9 gph. However, according to the US Lagoon factory rep, whenever the genset is "on" when motoring, it turns over at full output and is using at, or close to, that 1.9 gph figure. It does not do so when not motoring. Considering that a 40 hp Yanmar burns around .6 to .7 gph when motoring, this is still a far cry from the original Lagoon claim of 1/2 to 1/3 less fuel burn than a conventional diesel powerplant.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm glad you're happy. My fundamental point is that the hybrid system, and the 420 in general, is not what Lagoon purported it to be.

ID

[planetoftheapes]

"Those are the 2008 production stats from a Lagoon publication. There were no numbers for the 420, but it must be around 100, I guess."


The number of 420's/421's built is greater than 170 according to Anacasta. Avanga is jan 2008 #96.

Try to get your facts straight before publicly bashing other people's half million dollar catamarans.

By the way, I've had multiple serious offers to purchase Avanga, one this week.

-John

[talus]

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

"Try to get your facts straight..."

-John

I think that is the purpose of this whole discussion.

BTW - I have also noticed and increasing number of 420's on the market at attractive prices.

[Palarran]

There have been between 38 and 42 Fountaine Pajot Bahia's for sale over the past two years. The lowest asking price as gone down $55,000 since I started looking at them (two years ago). Some of the listings are double listings so the actual number available for sale is more like 30.

Leopard Cats have increased a lot in the last year. I haven't tracked them as well as the Bahia but the Moorings brokerage has 46 for sale right now.

[asb]

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

Try to get your facts straight before publicly bashing other people's half million dollar catamarans.

By the way, I've had multiple serious offers to purchase Avanga, one this week.
-John

An angry L420 seller we have here. I must be careful what I write.

The reason we write to this forum is to get better information. If you have concrete info about what we have written let us know. Thats the purpose of this forum. No reason to get aggressive.

I wish you good luck, hope you sell your 420.

[ess105]

The global recession is responsible for putting a lot of boats on the second hand market and for creating supply of new boats too. Not hard to see why. Folks who had good incomes and felt confident of their future took on luxury items like a boat - often with loans. Many (not all) looked to fund those loans with charter income. Some have lost incomes, future confidence is dented and charter incomes down. This is forcing people out of ownership into a second hand market that is bloated. Prices are therefore down and boats staying on books for a long time. I feel for those caught out by this. I doubt if this situation will last for ever and reckon a year or two from now the demand will catch up with supply and prices will return to something more normal - though not perhaps the levels they were precrunch.

I think there is a further effect with the Lagoon 420s. The performance<->comfort trade has made these boats excellent cruisers at the expense of there attraction for chartering. I think there is demand for them in the charter fleets but not perhaps in the numbers they were first placed. My guess is that owners looking to place boats in charter are being turned away allowing the fleets to normalize to sustainable ratios of boat types. In conjunction with the harsh economic times, this is forcing more folks to put their boats up for sale.

I stress this is my guess. It's based on the satisfaction we feel as cruiser owners, the feedback from owners we meet and our experience as brief charter/owners where revenues were adequate but not fantastic.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by ess105

My guess is that owners looking to place boats in charter are being turned away allowing the fleets to normalize to sustainable ratios of boat types. In conjunction with the harsh economic times, this is forcing more folks to put their boats up for sale.

There are several charter companies that would be happy to take older boats. Pro-Valor, Conch, etc. They charge all expenses to the owner so if a boat doesn't charter, they still make money.

I would think the major's are on a hold for new boats. They are probably having a problem filling current obligations to their boat owners.