Sloop vs Ketch upwind

[wedivebc]

While perusing my daily "boat porn" sites I cam across an ad for a 41' sloop where they stated the sloop was easier to handle and can sail closer to the wind than the similarly appointed ketch.
In my limited sailing experience that doesn't make sense to me that a ketch with the same keel and hull configuration can't sail closer than a sloop.
What am I missing?

[Kenomac]

A ketch is “old school” and quickly becoming extinct for a reason. Which is not to imply they’re not good as cruising boats, but don’t expect great resale value or sailing performance.

[Bill O]

The ketch is a great rig for sailing off the wind and typically up wind you'll use it as a sloop as the mizzen will have spoiled air off the main. Also a jib and jigger combination can be used upwind when the wind pipes up.

The ketch rig is very versatile and many who have not sailed a ketch will have disparaging remarks about them. Amel is an example of a "modern" ketch with good all round performance.

Cheers,
Bill O.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Bill O

The ketch is a great rig for sailing off the wind and typically up wind you'll use it as a sloop as the mizzen will have spoiled air off the main. Also a jib and jigger combination can be used upwind when the wind pipes up.

The ketch rig is very versatile and many who have not sailed a ketch will have disparaging remarks about them. Amel is an example of a "modern" ketch with good all round performance.

Cheers,
Bill O.

Amel is the only remaining manufacturer still offering a ketch along with their new Amel 50 which is sloop rigged.

[Sparx]

My cat ketch does not point as high as tightly strung racing boats, but keeps up with similar size cruisers. Crack off 10 degrees and we accelerate ahead.

[Bill O]

Originally Posted by wedivebc

While perusing my daily "boat porn" sites I cam across an ad for a 41' sloop where they stated the sloop was easier to handle and can sail closer to the wind than the similarly appointed ketch.
In my limited sailing experience that doesn't make sense to me that a ketch with the same keel and hull configuration can't sail closer than a sloop.
What am I missing?

To answer the OPs original question, would have to say that the statement in the ad is incorrect especially if the deck hardware layout was "similarly appointed". A ketch with a stays'l with similarly placed inboard genoa tracks would point upwind as well as the sloop with a cutter as they are essentially the same. Some ketch rigs can use the mizzen upwind with the main to their advantage if there is a big enough slot between them.

With the smaller sail sizes associated with the ketch rig it can be easier to handle by short handed crew and the various sail configurations for heavy weather are more versatile than with a sloop.

[barnakiel]

Assuming identical hulls:

Think of a sloop as a boat with two sails then imagine a ketch will have three sails.

When you trim upwind you may have noticed (if you ever sailed a sloop) that while you trim the main close to centerline then the genoa or jib will be sheeted 'open' somewhat.

We normally do not oversheet sails. A sail centered is about max in.

Now look at that ketch - her mizzen will be trimmed like the sloop's main. Her main will be trimmed somewhat open (a bit like that sloop's genoa ...) AND now her genoa will have to be sheeted even a bit further open.

Now this genoa may be to open to go upwind as close to the wind as that sloop goes.

I hope this explains.

An a cat rig may beat a sloop too. And you want to go slow. (Going fast pushes AWA forward).

Cheers,
b.

[Hasbeen]

When close hauled, most of the up wind drive & speed comes from the front couple of feet of your headsail.
Assuming similar sail carrying ability the mast of the sloop will be taller, as will the luff of the headsail.
I did some thousands of miles cruising in company of a mate. Mine was an old 40Ft pre world WW11 racing yacht, sloop rig, moderate weight, easily driven, & a joy to sail. His was a modern 40Ft fast cruising ketch easily driven of similar weight & sail over all area, but with a lower rig, also a joy to sail.
Hard on the wind I could run away & hide from him, but we only had to be a few degrees off hard on the wind for our performance to equalise. They remained about equal right round to about 45 degrees off the stern. With the wind this far aft I would again sail away from him, unless he dropped the mizzen & set a large mizzen staysail.
Once the breeze reached about 18 or 20 knots, our performance was again about equal.
With modern easy reefing the sloop is probably easier to cruise than a ketch, but there is not much in it.

[dick sargent]

The older I get the more I appreciate the convenience of a ketch. I guess the next step is a trawler. lol

[Peregrine1983]

I love my ketch. Great for cruising. My boat's rig is pretty conservative, so I can leave lots of sail up before it's overpowered... When I'm feeling lazy, or it's blowing real hard I love just sailing with the jib and mizzen and I never have to leave the cockpit. The boat sails beautifully that way.

However, if you're racing or looking for lots of performance upwind, look elsewhere.

[Thorne]

Originally Posted by Hasbeen

When close hauled, most of the up wind drive & speed comes from the front couple of feet of your headsail.
Assuming similar sail carrying ability the mast of the sloop will be taller, as will the luff of the headsail.
I did some thousands of miles cruising in company of a mate. Mine was an old 40Ft pre world WW11 racing yacht, sloop rig, moderate weight, easily driven, & a joy to sail. His was a modern 40Ft fast cruising ketch easily driven of similar weight & sail over all area, but with a lower rig, also a joy to sail.
Hard on the wind I could run away & hide from him, but we only had to be a few degrees off hard on the wind for our performance to equalise. They remained about equal right round to about 45 degrees off the stern. With the wind this far aft I would again sail away from him, unless he dropped the mizzen & set a large mizzen staysail.
Once the breeze reached about 18 or 20 knots, our performance was again about equal.
With modern easy reefing the sloop is probably easier to cruise than a ketch, but there is not much in it.

I have a ketch and I have found the above to be true.

However;

If you read between the lines you will notice that things like hull design, sail configuration, wind speed, angle off the wind and sailing experience weigh in

Ketches are in decline but not because of an over abundance of masts.

It more a change in the "Modern Sailors" wants and needs.

1. Less number of sails in the sail locker
2. Less rigging
3. Less experience needed to properly set the sails ( IMHO )
4. Less time needed to set the sails.
5. Smaller learning curve and budget for all the above. ( Unless you are racing Then none of the above applies)

So it's more about who the sailor is and what he's looking for in a sailing experience.

Like.
1. Took a course and I want to do some bareboating
vs
2. Love sailing and studying sailing and like the lines and increased safety of the Ketch. ( Ok, I thru in the safety comment, but I've always liked to have backups for everything, That's just me... )

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by Thorne

I have a ketch and I have found the above to be true.

However;

If you read between the lines you will notice that things like hull design, sail configuration, wind speed, angle off the wind and sailing experience weigh in

Ketches are in decline but not because of an over abundance of masts.

It more a change in the "Modern Sailors" wants and needs.

1. Less number of sails in the sail locker
2. Less rigging
3. Less experience needed to properly set the sails ( IMHO )
4. Less time needed to set the sails.
5. Smaller learning curve and budget for all the above. ( Unless you are racing Then none of the above applies)

So it's more about who the sailor is and what he's looking for in a sailing experience.

Like.
1. Took a course and I want to do some bareboating
vs
2. Love sailing and studying sailing and like the lines and increased safety of the Ketch. ( Ok, I thru in the safety comment, but I've always liked to have backups for everything, That's just me... )

Nice post. I agree.

Lots of ketches tend to be heavy cruisers - which of course won't sail as well to windward as a light sloop with a deep draft. In the "ketch vs sloop" argument you're often comparing the equivalent of a Toyota Land Cruiser to a BMW coupe.

[Bill Seal]

Besides all the above, a ketch just looks so COOL!
Especially with a clipper bow.

[DerekKelsall]

Originally Posted by Peregrine1983

I love my ketch. Great for cruising. My boat's rig is pretty conservative, so I can leave lots of sail up before it's overpowered... When I'm feeling lazy, or it's blowing real hard I love just sailing with the jib and mizzen and I never have to leave the cockpit. The boat sails beautifully that way.

However, if you're racing or looking for lots of performance upwind, look elsewhere.

There is another advantage of the ketch not mentioned. My OSTAR 64 entry was a 35ft. tri., ketch - Folatre with a standard Piver ketch sail plan. My hastily put together wind self steering did not work. It took a while to set the sheeting and helm but she would stay on track for hours at a time - for a very easy crossing. I did have a very precise tiller control. I could not have left the helm if she had been sloop rigged. Only once did I wake up sailing in the wrong direction - in 34 days, which was a good time in those days.

A sloop and autopilot gives best performance, particularly upwind.

Happy boating,

Derek.

[donradcliffe]

My experience is that a sloop will go to weather better than a catboat or a ketch, but I'm not sure I can explain why from a technical point of view. I used to hear about the slot effect, but many sloops are going to non overlapping headsails. Why wouldn't their be a similar slot effect from the mizzen? Why do some high performance racing cats use jibs and some don't?

I would not consider the Amel a performance cruiser.

A sloop with the autopilot on apparent wind mode will go to weather better than with it on compass mode.