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Old 10-11-2019, 15:57   #16
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

I once saw a guy pull into a mooring field and drop anchor right in the middle ,all the paying slaves, sorry meant citizens ,were in an uproar, because they paid and he didn't he later left
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Old 10-11-2019, 16:17   #17
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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Originally Posted by bmz View Post
Navagatable waters are under federal jurisdiction. Unless Congress has authorized the states to act, they can't intefere with those waters.
"Federal and state governments have concurrent
jurisdiction over navigable waters and the lands
beneath. Federal law also recognizes state and
local authority to regulate anchorages. The
regulatory power of the state is subject to the
paramount authority of the Federal government
for the regulation of interstate and foreign
commerce. States exercise control if it is
consistent with Federal actions or functions, and
does not interrupt commerce.
"The United States Coast Guard (USCG) has the authority to
establish, administer, and enforce anchorage grounds and
regulations for vessels in navigable waters of the United
States (U.S.). Establishing, amending or removing an
anchorage area often originates at the local level, with key
waterway users expressing a need for such an area. The
USCG, or other government agencies, might also determine
a need for an anchorage area."
FEDERAL ANCHORAGE REGULATIONS 33 CFR 110.72d and 33 CFR 110.173
And Congress did act with the Submerged Lands Act in 1953 which recognized state title to submerged navigable lands within 3 NM of their shores. There are state and local anchorage restrictions everywhere in the U.S., hundreds of them. They're legal under USC per the above, this is well established law.
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Old 11-11-2019, 08:18   #18
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Angry Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

It's always the money ... usually for the legislator's agenda (not the public's).
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Old 11-11-2019, 09:13   #19
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

Many people erroneously think US laws are uniform in all states and come from the Federal government. What you have to realize is that the US is a collection of individual states (governments) that gave total sovereignty for a collective union. But they did not give up all govt and regulatory powers. Have their own set of rules and regulations and Laws - except as modified by the Federal Govt over the last 250 yrs. Little by little as situations arose where the states agreed to give up through Congressional passage of new laws.

Remember back where States regulated totally their own banks, money, roads, bridges, militias, etc. Now they may partially still do it with Federal rules taking precedence when their is a conflict. Think where some states have different marijuana or abortion laws, state taxes, retirement plan guidelines, etc. Some of these are still not totally settled.
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Old 11-11-2019, 12:18   #20
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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Originally Posted by psk125 View Post
Sounds like a luxury tax on rich boaters. What party controls Georgia these days?
That's the wrong question. The regulations were to be established by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources, as opposed to being a law passed by the state legislature. Even if the permit requirements had been put in place, it really wouldn't bear any resemblance to a "luxury tax on rich boaters." If it were such, the cost would be based on the size or (less likely) value of the boat, as ACTUAL luxury (aka Personal Property) taxes are levied against boats in other states.

The new anchoring permit regulation was purportedly driven by "environmental" concerns, and there has been much said on this forum on that subject in another thread.

As of a couple of months ago, the whole permit idea has been shelved, at least for now, but the DNR does plan to restrict some locations from anchoring, tied to actual sensitive zones like breeding grounds.
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Old 11-11-2019, 18:02   #21
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
That's the wrong question. The regulations were to be established by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources, as opposed to being a law passed by the state legislature. Even if the permit requirements had been put in place, it really wouldn't bear any resemblance to a "luxury tax on rich boaters." If it were such, the cost would be based on the size or (less likely) value of the boat, as ACTUAL luxury (aka Personal Property) taxes are levied against boats in other states.

The new anchoring permit regulation was purportedly driven by "environmental" concerns, and there has been much said on this forum on that subject in another thread.

As of a couple of months ago, the whole permit idea has been shelved, at least for now, but the DNR does plan to restrict some locations from anchoring, tied to actual sensitive zones like breeding grounds.
The regulations were the implementation of a law, specifically HB201 now Title 52, Section 52-7-8.4 of the Official Code of Georgia. As all regulations are. Legislatures pass laws, agencies establish rules to implement those laws. They don't have the authority anywhere in the US to implement regulations absent enabling law. This is basic civics 101.

And to answer the "wrong" question, the Republican party happens to control both houses and the Governor's office in GA both now and when HB201 was passed. It was cosponsored by 5 Republicans and 1 Democrat in the House and sponsored by one Republican in the Senate. To be fair, it was passed nearly unanimously (http://www.legis.ga.gov/Legislation/...0192020/HB/201 for full details on the bill and voting records for the person who asked and anyone else interested in the legislative process). Also to be fair to the DNR, based on public comments they went as close as I've ever seen an agency go toward skirting the legislative intent with the proposed regulations...in favor of boaters and against what was pretty clear draconian language in the law. So DNR definitely aren't the bad guys in this situation unless you're in favor of stricter anchoring laws! As someone who spent 20 years as one of those civil servants who are hired and paid to write implimeting regulation for laws passed by the legislature, I would humbly ask that you take a refresher on how law is turns into regulation before automatically painting us, doing our job exactly as our system of government requires, as automatic bad guys running amok sitting around dreaming up regulations unteathered from any law. Especially when the law is so clear and easy to find as is the case in this instance. Thanks for extending the same respect to us and our professionalism as we do our best to extend to you, the public who hired us to do exactly this.
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Old 12-11-2019, 09:55   #22
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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Originally Posted by redneckrob View Post
The regulations were the implementation of a law, specifically HB201 now Title 52, Section 52-7-8.4 of the Official Code of Georgia. As all regulations are. Legislatures pass laws, agencies establish rules to implement those laws. They don't have the authority anywhere in the US to implement regulations absent enabling law. This is basic civics 101.
I am aware of that, the same holds true for the BCDC (Bay Area Conservation and Development Commission) which promulgates regulations for the SF Bay area, and many other such agencies in California. It takes an act of legislation to enable the agency to set rules and regulations, which in turn have force of law, within the jurisdiction of the agency established by the original legislation.

It was my understanding, from reading threads here and other online news articles, that the language of the bill (HB 502) was actually written by the Georgia DNR. Somebody had to write the bill, after all, and very often the authors are not the legislators who are listed. As in this case, it lists four Representatives and unnamed "others." If, in fact, members of the DNR did not write the bill, I stand corrected.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:24   #23
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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Originally Posted by Brewgyver View Post
I am aware of that, the same holds true for the BCDC (Bay Area Conservation and Development Commission) which promulgates regulations for the SF Bay area, and many other such agencies in California. It takes an act of legislation to enable the agency to set rules and regulations, which in turn have force of law, within the jurisdiction of the agency established by the original legislation.

It was my understanding, from reading threads here and other online news articles, that the language of the bill (HB 502) was actually written by the Georgia DNR. Somebody had to write the bill, after all, and very often the authors are not the legislators who are listed. As in this case, it lists four Representatives and unnamed "others." If, in fact, members of the DNR did not write the bill, I stand corrected.
Sorry to go off on a slight tangent here but this is so very very important that if I can even help one person understand it I think its well worth the time. Agencies are not responsible for legislation...never ever ever, in the U.S. at the state or federal level. Legislators alone can initiate bills, the governor can sign or veto them, and an agency is responsible for rulemaking on the basis of a bill. An agency can and often is asked for technical advice in drafting a law related to their area of expertise. An agency can ask legislators to fix something in their area of expertise that they see is a problem, generally through their politically appointed agency heads or if specifically asked by legislators. In every state I work in and at the federal level agencies are specifically prohibited from lobbying lawmakers. While in my past reality I can't imagine any agency ever drafting a bill that's taken by legislator as-is and introduced, I suppose an agency head in today's EPA or DHS (my old agency) might do that. Even in that case though, the legislator(s) who introduced it, propose amendments, and vote to approve it as well as the governor/President who signs it are still ultimately and entirely responsible for it's existence as a law.

I think it's also important to correct the idea posited that an agency is simply enabled by legislation and then runs it's own show from there. The Coast Guard was established in 1790. We haven't just been deciding what we want to do on our own since them based on the legislation establishing us. Every rulemaking we undertake flows directly from a specific law passed by congress and signed by the President. Every one. There are no Coast Guard regulations that flow from our charter, there are no GA DNR regulations that flow from theirs, they implement specific laws.

The reason I think this civics 101 lesson is so so important is that I see especially here this actually honestly and depressingly widely held belief that somehow career civil servants, often pejoratively thought of as "unelected bureaucrats", are somehow overriding elected leaders and making up their own rules as they see fit with no oversight or control. This is not only simply completely and utterly incorrect, but it makes even less sense in a case like this where you have both chambers controlled by one party and an executive branch (which is who appoints the DNR head) from the same party, and yet there is the implication that somehow this agency is running their own show contrary to the will of the people. This isn't the case in GA, it isn't the case in CA, it isn't the case at the federal level.

If you want to be angry at someone, use the democratic process to ensure legislators who agree with what you want are elected and lobby the ones who are already there....they have the ultimate power and responsibility to decide what makes it into law and regulation can only, ever, flow from law. Please don't make the mistake of accusing career civil service of somehow running things on their own, it's not only completely inaccurate but also very ineffective because railing against them changes nothing because they can do nothing that the weren't instructed to do by the elected branches. Use your energy to cause change to happen at the elected official level, they're the one's answerable to us as voters and the only ones who can change the laws that direct regulation.

As an aside, if anyone at GA DNR asked to have this pile of crap dumped on them they need to have their head examined. What an absolute nightmare, that they ended up as I indicated going perilously close to openly rebelling against the law on. No civil servant in their right mind would have even considered asking for that unless they were retiring and hated their successor! The idea that they initiated this just doesn't pass the smell test from someone who once lived in this world.
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:37   #24
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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widely held belief that somehow career civil servants, often pejoratively thought of as "unelected bureaucrats", are somehow overriding elected leaders and making up their own rules as they see fit
This is absolutely correct, but in reality a result of the executive leadership,

rather than filling their intended role of managing agencies to help them fulfill the legal mandates dictated by legislation,

intentionally appoints agency management from lobbyists, lawyers etc from the regulated industries, specifically to weaken, even cripple their effectiveness.

It will take decades to repair the damage done, and no one knows how to prevent such "up is down" perverted sabotage of the rule of law from happening again in the future.

Anarchism used to be thought a branch of the left, but in fact has traditionally been allowing the rich and powerful to just do what they want.

All progress in human political-economics has been the result of fighting against that historical default, but

now it seems we're going backwards
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Old 12-11-2019, 13:35   #25
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How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

However blaming the agency is what people do.
We weren’t in Vietnam because Soldiers wanted to be there, we were there because politicians sent us there.
But it was the Soldiers that were spat on and called baby killers, where it should have been the politicians of course.
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Old 12-11-2019, 16:48   #26
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

Quote:
Originally Posted by redneckrob View Post
Sorry to go off on a slight tangent here but this is so very very important that if I can even help one person understand it I think its well worth the time. Agencies are not responsible for legislation...never ever ever, in the U.S. at the state or federal level. Legislators alone can initiate bills, the governor can sign or veto them, and an agency is responsible for rulemaking on the basis of a bill. An agency can and often is asked for technical advice in drafting a law related to their area of expertise. An agency can ask legislators to fix something in their area of expertise that they see is a problem, generally through their politically appointed agency heads or if specifically asked by legislators. In every state I work in and at the federal level agencies are specifically prohibited from lobbying lawmakers. While in my past reality I can't imagine any agency ever drafting a bill that's taken by legislator as-is and introduced, I suppose an agency head in today's EPA or DHS (my old agency) might do that. Even in that case though, the legislator(s) who introduced it, propose amendments, and vote to approve it as well as the governor/President who signs it are still ultimately and entirely responsible for it's existence as a law.

I think it's also important to correct the idea posited that an agency is simply enabled by legislation and then runs it's own show from there. The Coast Guard was established in 1790. We haven't just been deciding what we want to do on our own since them based on the legislation establishing us. Every rulemaking we undertake flows directly from a specific law passed by congress and signed by the President. Every one. There are no Coast Guard regulations that flow from our charter, there are no GA DNR regulations that flow from theirs, they implement specific laws.

The reason I think this civics 101 lesson is so so important is that I see especially here this actually honestly and depressingly widely held belief that somehow career civil servants, often pejoratively thought of as "unelected bureaucrats", are somehow overriding elected leaders and making up their own rules as they see fit with no oversight or control. This is not only simply completely and utterly incorrect, but it makes even less sense in a case like this where you have both chambers controlled by one party and an executive branch (which is who appoints the DNR head) from the same party, and yet there is the implication that somehow this agency is running their own show contrary to the will of the people. This isn't the case in GA, it isn't the case in CA, it isn't the case at the federal level.

If you want to be angry at someone, use the democratic process to ensure legislators who agree with what you want are elected and lobby the ones who are already there....they have the ultimate power and responsibility to decide what makes it into law and regulation can only, ever, flow from law. Please don't make the mistake of accusing career civil service of somehow running things on their own, it's not only completely inaccurate but also very ineffective because railing against them changes nothing because they can do nothing that the weren't instructed to do by the elected branches. Use your energy to cause change to happen at the elected official level, they're the one's answerable to us as voters and the only ones who can change the laws that direct regulation.

As an aside, if anyone at GA DNR asked to have this pile of crap dumped on them they need to have their head examined. What an absolute nightmare, that they ended up as I indicated going perilously close to openly rebelling against the law on. No civil servant in their right mind would have even considered asking for that unless they were retiring and hated their successor! The idea that they initiated this just doesn't pass the smell test from someone who once lived in this world.

So you advocate the lifetime bureaucrats to overrule the law "within limits" to whatever they decide is correct cause the plebes don't know enough to vote "correctly".





You Sir, Are The Enemy.


I don't think you can blame government employees for following the rules they are instructed to follow. Other than they can have a little self respect and get an honorable job.
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Old 13-11-2019, 07:18   #27
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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So you advocate the lifetime bureaucrats to overrule the law "within limits" to whatever they decide is correct cause the plebes don't know enough to vote "correctly".
I didn't read that at all. Quite the opposite. To me it sounded like he said the "lifetime bureaucrats" do their best to uphold the law, even when it's not to their liking.

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You Sir, Are The Enemy.

I don't think you can blame government employees for following the rules they are instructed to follow. Other than they can have a little self respect and get an honorable job.
I see nothing dishonorable about public service. Someone needs to do the day-to-day work of administering all the crazy laws our elected leaders have chosen to implement.

This practice of vilifying anyone for doing their jobs - bureaucrats, former staff members, journalists, comedians, business owners, basically anyone who can speak truth - is not good for our democracy.
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Old 13-11-2019, 11:49   #28
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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However blaming the agency is what people do.
We weren’t in Vietnam because Soldiers wanted to be there, we were there because politicians sent us there.
But it was the Soldiers that were spat on and called baby killers, where it should have been the politicians of course.
Not saying that that reaction was right, but slavishly following orders when the whole exercise is a war crime is not morally defensible either.

Suppose they gave a war and nobody came?

There are lots more avenues for direct participation in a democracy than just voting, especially in fighting unjust laws and corrupt leadership.
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Old 13-11-2019, 16:08   #29
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Re: How did ga get away with anchoring permits?

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So you advocate the lifetime bureaucrats to overrule the law "within limits" to whatever they decide is correct cause the plebes don't know enough to vote "correctly".





You Sir, Are The Enemy.


I don't think you can blame government employees for following the rules they are instructed to follow. Other than they can have a little self respect and get an honorable job.
I advocated nothing of the sort, but I would note that calling me "the enemy" for my 20 years of service is probably not in keeping with the kind, respectful, well intentioned person I'm sure you are. I would invite you to meet in person over a drink here in Annapolis, I'll even buy, and I can explain what exactly it was I did in my day to day job as one of those "lifetime bureaucrats" and hopefully between putting a face to "the enemy" and having the opportunity to ask questions and engage in a civil, well meaning discussion we can both emerge the better for it. Also happy to tell you about the two successful startups I founded since leaving the Coast Guard, perhaps if putting my life on the line to rescue a number of cruisers in distress during several of my tours isn't something you consider an "honorable job" then creating companies and jobs would fit your description? Would love to hear of your achievements as well, as I'm sure you are as proud of them as all of us in the Coast Guard are of ours.
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