Willard Rewire Project

[blahman]

Originally Posted by MV

Blahman
This should all be done within 3 weeks.

Infamous words.

Anyway, about the "sticking with 14-2/14-3". 14 AWG wire is great for things that draw the amount it can handle. Don't get yourself stuck using 14 for things that need to current capacity of 10 AWG though! Voltage drop is significant.

We wound up using 16AWG for overhead lights and reading lights. 14AWG for some stuff, and a good amount of 12 and 10. We bough 50' of 1AWG for battery cable, 200' of 16/2, 200 14/2, 200' 12/2, 100' 10/2. We had a lot of primary wire already, and made some from the boat cable (I know, waste of money, but when you need it...) Also, a few hundred heat shrink ring connectors. 14/3 is fine for standard 15amp AC outlets. But from the shore power inlet to the panel, make sure to use large enough wire for whatever your power hookup is. For 30 amp receptacles, it's 10 AWG. 50A it's 6 AWG.

Size wire for the load, not the budget. It'll save $ later. Even though your VHF may turn on and transmit with 8% voltage drop, it's life will be reduced significantly from scavenging for power.

Cheers!
Aaron N.

[SV Someday Came]

Who was your wire supplier?

[blahman]

Michael,

I set up a wholesale account through our business with Pacer Marine (Pacer Marine). Their main office is north of us just 30 miles, so we drove up (many times for lack of planning!!) to get stuff. They'll ship anywhere though.

Pacer Marine

This is the wire "Best Boat Wire" uses - it's very affordable when you have an account with them. My 50' spool of 1 AWG BC5W2 wire was $180. West Marine Retail for Anchor is almost $550. Boat cable, connectors, everything is available and at very good prices. They make it all.

Cheers,
Aaron N.

[SV Someday Came]

I need some help again please.

The third picture of the first post in this thread contains the matter at hand. There is a fuel line that goes into a corroded little metal box and another (semi-coiled) fuel line that comes out of that little aluminum box and into the blue fuel filter thing.

During the rewiring of the engine something happened. When the engine pull switch is on, that little box makes the same clickty-click sound as a kid whose front bike wheel has a playing card attached with a clothes pin. The fruquency of the clicking does not seem to change with engine RPMs.

I cannot tell what the little box is, but if you look closely at the picture there is a corroded toggle switch with a very corroded wire that leads to the box. The sound does continue even with the engine running.

This sound was not there before the electrician replaced the instruments and installed a new wiring harness. I talked to her, but she was clear (in a nice way) that she did her install correctly and that the sound it is now making has nothing to do with her work.

And the fact is, before the job no sound, after the job, sound. I am not upset about the sound – seems like every time I fix something, something else goes south, so this is no surprise at all. But…..

What is that little box?
What could cause it to make that clicking sound?
Why would a toggle switch for that little box be located in the engine compartment?
I am sure whatever this setup is (toggle switch and box) I am sure it needs replacing and fixing. What am I fixing and how do I do it?

Thanks

Michael

[Lancerbye]

It's hard to make out exactly what it is by the picture. My guess is that it is an auxilliary fuel pump. Some boats including mine have auxilliary electric fuel pumps to pump fuel to the filters. makes doing a filter change easier by basically replacing the crappy little engine mounted fuel priming pump with an electric auxilliary. To test this theory out change your fuel filter and before putting the cap back on activate the switch and watch to see if the fuel rises to the top. Eliminates the need for bleeding if done right.

[DeepFrz]

Looks like a fuel pump to me as well.

[SV Someday Came]

Deep Frz

I never knew to whom we owed our understanding of the level of pathology inherent in a hallucination, nor did I know to whom we owed our understanding of the distinction between different types of delusions. I mean, I was taught the differences, but it never occurred to me to learn who formulated these differences. This is the first time I have ever bothered to look up a tagline, and in doing so, I drew a Royal Flush. I feel like a lucky fool!

Damn! Learn something new everyday on this board!

Michael

[Lancerbye]

MV

When your electrician did the rewiring she probably activated a branch circuit that was previously dead. It should have been live and controllable via the switch. If you can't stop the noise, which we assume to be a fuel pump, by changing the switch position you might want to remove one wire from the switch to see if the pump stops. If it does, it means the thing needing replacement is the switch. It is corroded in a closed position. (shorted not that uncommon in a boat.)

[SV Someday Came]

I will try your idea this weekend. I have been afraid to flick the switch -- I dont know what it does and if I threw switch I was not sure I could immediately undone what I did.

Thanks for the link.

Does the sound mean the pump is bad?

Michael

[Nauticatarcher]

Yup looks like an electric fuel pump and the ticking sound shows its working, probably not needed all the time and has been installed with switch to help refill Racor and bleed system when changing Filters and then turned off as Engine fuel pump will do the job and it wont interfere with fuel flow when off

[Lancerbye]

MV

The pumps are similar to aquarium pumps. Operated by pulsing a diaphram and using check valves. That sound is normal. If it pumps as per my previous post and the level of the fuel goes up in filter, Its ok. I have two bigger ones (two systems, two engines, twice the headaches) That is the noise they make. When I first purchased the boat. I didn't know they existed. They are rather well hidden, but I had these two switches in the engine room. It was a while before I got brave enough to turn them on. When I did I heard this chattering noise. Still didn't know what they were for until I traced the wires for the switches back. Having used this system, I find it great. No air bleeding etc. Didn't have this on my previous boat. This is a bonus.

[SV Someday Came]

I am pretty frustrated -- there seems to be no end in sight to this boat. The electrical wiring is nearing completion but there is just one headache after another.

I could use some help and suggestions please.

1. My two bilge pumps -- one in the salon and one in the engine compartment -- are wired into the always on circuitry on the Blue Sea Battery Management Panel 8686. Well, the problem is that now I have lost the ability to turn the switches on manually. And I dont want the whole bulkhead to go back to the piecemeal look of panels and knobs and switches here and there. I am not sure what to do. I ASSUME it is a good and necessary thing to be able to manually work the bilge pumps? Or maybe not? I thought I was being clever by embedding the bilge pumps in the 8686, but I guess not.

2. I want use the pre-existing antenna at the top of the mast for my Yeasu FT7800R. I was going to run the coax to my Daiwa CS-201 coax switch.... but then it occurred to me that the antenna on the mast that will be used with the the new Icom 504 might not be compatible with my VHF/UHF radio. yes, I am a ham and yes I am very ignorant about frequencies and wave lengths. It just has always been hard for me to "get" some stuff.

3. I am going to hook up my Icom R75 and my Icom 718 side by side in one of the salon side cabinets. (I think the receiver on the 75 is superior to the receiver on the 718 and I am hooking up the 718 cause I cannot afford a dedicated SSB right now) thought about running two seperate power leads to the panel but then I thought why not run just one wire to the cabinet and then hook it to a busbar and then wire the radios to the busbar. How do I figure the size of the wire? Each of the Icoms' powerleads are fused and each is about 6 feet long. Do I only fuse the one long powerlead to the panel from the busbar and make new very short leads sans fuses for the radios, or do I bundle the existing powerleads with their in-line fuses and use those and just have one regular long powerlead to the panel?

4. I bought a new engine hour meter. The old meter has the old hours on it. It was wired so that each time the engine instrument panel instruments were activated -- whether or not the engine was running -- the hour meter would run!!!. I only learned this because I bought a log when I bought the boat and dutifully recorded any project I did in the log. Since there was a place for the hourmeter, I dutifully recorded the engine hour meter knowing full well the boat was not and had not been anywhere. Had I not done such a trivial thing, I would have not noticed the additional 40 mins engine operating time.... but I digress.... Is there the right and legal way to "add" the old hours to the new meter? Simple log note? Install the old one in the engine compartment and keep it there as a way to be honest?

4. I swapped out one of the preexisting LEDs in the Blue Sea 8084 panel. I wanted the propane tank valve to be on the Blue Sea panel but I wanted to KNOW when the switched was on -- so I swapped out the existing amber LED for a red LED. Now I am having doubts -- I got rid of the Trident LPG Switch panel and am now using the Blue Sea panel. But maybe there is logic for NOT using an existing electrical panel and in using a separate panel for the propane. Thoughts?

5. The 8084 is an AC/DC combo panel. The back is open and easily accessible -- that is, the AC section is right next to the DC. I thought I read somewhere here that the AC must be kept physically isolated. yet, the panel came this way. The only way to get to the back of the panel is to drop into to the engine compartment. Do people build dividers for the back of their ACDC panels?

6. I had a Guest 10 AMP charger. (its 5 months old and for sale BTW) for the two batteries. The new Protech 1220i 20amp 3 bank charger makes noise. It makes a fan noise and it makes a quiet "electrical" noise too. The Guest was dead silent. Is it normal for a larger charger to make an electrical noise? It has been in constant operation for 5 days now and everything seems to be ok..... but I am worried. Thoughts?

Thanks much -- really appreciate your help.

Michael

[GordMay]

Michael:
More later, if still required - but here’s a start:

Single Pole Double Throw Switch Circuit
As utilized to control either one of two devices (radios) from a single power supply, or to provide Manual-Automatic Control (bilge pump).
http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery...=500&userid=79

Wire Sizing Chart (pages1 & 2):
http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery...=500&userid=79
http://www.cruisersforum.com/gallery...=500&userid=79

[Pblais]

You have a number of issues and they seem to me to come up because you are now thinking more and smarter. It's just one of those times when the more you get into it the more you find to get into. Keeping cool helps.

. My two bilge pumps

I set my bilge pump up so it can never be turned off, yet can manually be turned on. Getting off the boat or being on the boat with an inoperable bilge pump means you could have a leak and perfectly fine bilge pump won't pump. The second thing is to have a way to manually operate the pump should the switch in the pump fail. If the pump is an automatic pump then you don't have the switch option. Some folks run the power direct to a switch so it has a position of off / on / auto. Off kills all the power to the pump, auto powers the float switch and on bypasses the float switch. I don't like the off position switch. we had a neighbor that almost lost the boat because he accidentally switched the pump to off. A few waves went over the transom (small power boat) and little by little every wake added more. I saw it as the transom was lower enough for it to just flow in.

The pump on our first boat was actually switched at the panel and accidentally was in the off position when the stuffing box was leaking. I caught it in time. I later added a wire tie to the panel so it could not be switched off without cutting the tie. When I rewired to switch to AGM batteries we eliminated that switch too. You still want a fuse no matter how you do it but if it runs through the panel the master DC Off can disable the bilge pump.

If you look at many battery posts on you often see nest of wires attached directly to the battery. The bilge pump is one of the very few I think it is OK to attach that way.

Engine Hour meter

I replaced the one in the last boat as it was a standalone meter. You can add hours to a meter but I wouldn't. A log entry will help you but the issue of when you sell the boat comes up. No matter what you do someone may think you subtracted hours or added too few once they get the idea that the meter is not original. Best to restart at zero. Maybe save the old meter as a monument to this great project. Fully disclose the information if you sell the boat. Open disclosure is superior to any attempt to mess with a brand new meter. Worst case is you mess with the new meter and break it. Anyone that sees the new meter will know it's new and not original. Saying you added back the old hours sends up more suspicion than anything else. It means you know how to screw with an hour meter and did. Having a new working meter is good.

I got rid of the Trident LPG Switch panel and am now using the Blue Sea panel. But maybe there is logic for NOT using an existing electrical panel and in using a separate panel for the propane. Thoughts?

Location is the key. It's easier to see it in the panel. I'm not sure any advantage is gained in a second panel.

Is it normal for a larger charger to make an electrical noise?

Fans make noise. The conversion of AC to DC makes heat. A lot of designs use different cooling methods. So long as the settings on the charger are set for AGM (you said you have AGM's now) it should be fine. Make sure the regulator on the alternator is also set to AGM and that any tweaking has been set as well. AGM's don't like the voltages out adjustment. It's nicer if you electrician can test voltages with her way better than a dime store meter.


All the best in your electrical refit. Boats in the late 70's didn't have many standards back then and so it's often required to do all this. It seems like you are on the road to completing this project. Do take the time to make a wiring diagram of everything. A year or two from now you won't remember as well as you do right now. You also risk the indignity of getting older and keeping this boat a long time (since it's been rewired so well).

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by MV

I am pretty frustrated -- there seems to be no end in sight to this boat. The electrical wiring is nearing completion but there is just one headache after another.

I could use some help and suggestions please.

1. My two bilge pumps -- one in the salon and one in the engine compartment -- are wired into the always on circuitry on the Blue Sea Battery Management Panel 8686. Well, the problem is that now I have lost the ability to turn the switches on manually. And I dont want the whole bulkhead to go back to the piecemeal look of panels and knobs and switches here and there. I am not sure what to do. I ASSUME it is a good and necessary thing to be able to manually work the bilge pumps? Or maybe not? I thought I was being clever by embedding the bilge pumps in the 8686, but I guess not.


4. I bought a new engine hour meter. The old meter has the old hours on it. It was wired so that each time the engine instrument panel instruments were activated -- whether or not the engine was running -- the hour meter would run!!!. I only learned this because I bought a log when I bought the boat and dutifully recorded any project I did in the log. Since there was a place for the hourmeter, I dutifully recorded the engine hour meter knowing full well the boat was not and had not been anywhere. Had I not done such a trivial thing, I would have not noticed the additional 40 mins engine operating time.... but I digress.... Is there the right and legal way to "add" the old hours to the new meter? Simple log note? Install the old one in the engine compartment and keep it there as a way to be honest?

Sounds like you are making great progress. Hang in there!

1/ I am with Paul. Our boat did not have an electric Bilge pump and added one. I bought the off-auto-manual switch. I just don't understand why there is even an off position on these pumps - OK there may be needs to remove power from the pump - but not often enough to have a switch IMO - I can pull the fuse - which is also on the front panel.

Before you add manual switches, make sure you understand the circuit. Installing a manual switch "in series" with the float switch, for the eventuallity of a failed float switch may not work if the float switch circuit is failed. It would need to be a parallel supply.

4/ Check your meter - Some meters allow you to adjust the hours manually. Kind of like setting the code on a numeric lock. Aircraft use hour meters and time tracking is a critical and legal requirement. It is legitimate to record the installation of a new hourmeter in the log like this "Hour Meter replaced with zero time meter at Aircraft time 12,256 hours and Engine Time Since Overhaul at 985 hours."

There is usually an electric meter that is on whenever power is on and a Hobbs meter powered by the engine tach. The hour meter creeps ahead of the tach or Hobbs time because power is on before engine. The Hobbs time is a variable voltage based on RPM so it runs faster and slower - It is calibrated for cruise RPM.

My boat has the hourmeter incorporated in the tach. So.... that leads me to conclude you need the hourmeter in the tach circuit as well. Don't know what your tach setup is. If it is solid state sealed or something there may be a port for an external hour meter.