Swedish Craftsmanship / Quality on Hallberg Rassy

[Sailorcanuck]

Here's an article from Sailing Magazine reviewing the Bene 423:


"The details
Conditions were nearly ideal for our Sailing Magazine Boat Test. The wind was steady at about 12 knots and the sea state minimal. The crew aboard the 423 hastily rolled in the main and jib as photographer Mike Wootton carefully eased along side. Bob Pingel (a.k.a. SAILING’s Boat Doctor) and I hopped aboard, a maneuver that one day may land your less-than-graceful correspondents in the drink.
We quickly hauled out the main and 140-percent genoa. The 423 accelerated smartly. This was hull No. 1 of what promises to be a huge production run for the 423. Although this boat was built in France it is now manufactured at Beneteau’s plant in Marion, South Carolina.
The robust, hand-laid solid fiberglass hull is built to CE Offshore A category standards. The hull is supported by Beneteau’s proven grid system—a bonded fiberglass hull liner that stiffens the hull and spreads loads from the rig throughout the boat. The deck is a cored sandwich construction to keep weight down, although a solid laminate is used to support high-load areas. The bulkheads are bonded 360 degrees to hull and deck. Over the years Beneteaus have logged millions of sea miles, the ultimate testament to sound construction.
Below the water the forefoot is relatively narrow and somewhat flat. The 423 may pound slightly in a nasty chop but the lack of wetted surface also translates into good performance in most conditions with a hull shape not prone to heeling. The cast-iron bulb keel is externally fastened to the hull. The standard draft is 5 feet, 7 inches. A shoal-draft keel at 4 feet, 9 inches and deep-draft keel at 6 feet, 11 inches are options. The prop is well protected in a small skeg as opposed to a more vulnerable strut. The balanced rudder is positioned well aft for good steering control, and the rudder is composite construction, including the stock. "

[pcats1]

As a composites professional with more than 30 years experience in hand lay up, vacuum infusion, press moulding, pultrusion, Light RTM, VARTM etc., etc. I suggest doing a bit of research before jumping to conclusions. Hand Lay Up is the old, original technology for building, among other things, boats. It provides a resin rich lamination with glass:resin ratios in the 30:70 range. A modern vacuum infusion will give just the opposite. Since glass is the strength of a composite, a higher glass content is desirable. Permeability is the other major issue. A laminate with a lot of air entrainment is likely to blister. Overdosing with resin is a good way to eliminate this air. However, H.L.U, unless performed by very experienced people, will allow way to much air to be included in the laminate. An infusion will balance the correct amount of resin and glass but should also be gel coated and epoxied to present the proper barrier to blisters.

I can assure everyone HR did not "spray up" the hull. This involves using chopped glass and resin and is appropriate for non-structural products.

On the other hand, all manufacturers produce "lemons" from time to time. Sometimes, and especially in challenging economic times, these "lemons" can sink the company. This might just possibly be the explanation for HR's head in the sand.

[KillerBoo]

The ruling has been appealed, but no date is set, so far.
What amazes me the most about this whole thing isn´t wether or not HR has made a poor job. It´s the way they handle the whole mess, risking a trademark worth far more than any marginal win gained from dealing with this single matter off the eyes of the public.
Any company can make a fck-up, but once that mistake reaches the old stiff necked audience it will be discussions like this one that sticks to mind when it comes to deciding on what boat to choose: Do I take the JaBeBa for half price with a knowledge that they at least dont cr-p on my if there is a problem... or do I go for the "quality" that once was connected with HR.. and if I run into problems I will have to take them to court...

[KillerBoo]

Originally Posted by pcats1

Hand Lay Up is the old, original technology for building, among other things, boats. It provides a resin rich lamination with glass:resin ratios in the 30:70 range

They obv missed that part of training hehe
Pic 1) The drill core that started the whole thing by falling apart
Pic 2) 3x enlargment of the inner surface of the outer part of the core
Pic 3) 5x enlargment of the outer surface of the inner part of the same core
(The 2 surfaces are meant to stick to eachother)
Pic 4) A close up of the core, sector photographed (swedish term??) for better depth of view.

The above is a fault free laminate acc to HR but where is the glass fibre?

[Blue Stocking]

Walk in the door at HR with enough money to buy a new one, and I bet you there is someone there who will explain their position completely.

[KillerBoo]

Originally Posted by Blue Stocking

Walk in the door at HR with enough money to buy a new one, and I bet you there is someone there who will explain their position completely.

Hmmmm, well.. Will they allow me to drill holes in the boat prior to signing the contract so I will know it´s ok..? Dont think I´d listen very much to what the sales guy says.

[SurferShane]

Originally Posted by Sailorcanuck

Here is a review of Bene construction of the 411 model from BOATS.COM. It describes several aspects of their construction:....,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

But the crux of the thread is like, “is that what you are really getting”?

[Blue Stocking]

Originally Posted by KillerBoo

Hmmmm, well.. Will they allow me to drill holes in the boat prior to signing the contract so I will know it´s ok..? Dont think I´d listen very much to what the sales guy says.

My point was that sceptics are not likely to show up, with the intention of buying one.

[Kristian]

They obv missed that part of training hehe
Pic 1) The drill core that started the whole thing by falling apart
Pic 2) 3x enlargment of the inner surface of the outer part of the core
Pic 3) 5x enlargment of the outer surface of the inner part of the same core
(The 2 surfaces are meant to stick to eachother)
Pic 4) A close up of the core, sector photographed (swedish term??) for better depth of view.

The above is a fault free laminate acc to HR but where is the glass fibre?

Hi !
Must confess to be poorly uppdated on this whole subject with possible quality problems at HR.
When I did see the core drilled out and that it has separated I do sure remember drilling holes in my solid 20 mm GRP reinforcements in the bilge when installing battery cables.

It was very common to get these type of " delaminations " of the core. I belive they are due to the heat generated when drilling a little too fast whit a holesaw that is getting dull. In addition to this the Glass/ polyester sawdust gives fantastic friction adding a tremendous tourque trying to break the core.
From drilling a hundred or so of these holes it was always when going too fast with a dull holesaw that this happened.
The GRP goes soft when the temp get in the 100 degre C+ range and there you can get permanent deformation of for instance a hull. ( reason for why you have to controll temp carefully when doing Osmosis drying)

I would not put any attention to this if it is this "proof" behind the case.

Rgds
Kristian

[Kristian]

Hi Again!
Beeing a swede I have been reading a bit more and seen much more pictures / documentation. One interesting one that convinced me that my previous posting is wrong was a core taken out of an other laminate that was split by force showing glas fibre strands. Seeing that one I do really recognise this from my own temperature splitted cores. The whole thing is a bit shocking and I belive this thing is going to bite HR just as hard as the keel problems did to Bavaria.
Sorry for my previous post not going throu the documentation properly..

Rgds

Kristian

[Brent Swain]

Given it's tendency to rot, I'm curious why anyone uses balsa core any more.
The trouble with Swedish built boats is they tend to use Volvos, which the Aussies appropriately call "The Green Death"

[Zanshin]

Originally Posted by KillerBoo

The ruling has been appealed, but no date is set, so far...
What amazes me the most about this whole thing isn´t wether or not HR has made a poor job. It´s the way they handle the whole mess, risking a trademark worth far more than any marginal win gained from dealing with this single matter off the eyes of the public...

I spoke with HR two weekends ago and, in response to the same question as you posted, they responded that they were informed of all the problems and the price tag, but were never allowed to inspect the boat, they were not even allowed near it. In a case like that, I would have responded the same way that they did and refused to pay/reimburse sight-unseen. And the court ruling seems to support the conclusion that their attitude was justified.

[KillerBoo]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

I spoke with HR two weekends ago and, in response to the same question as you posted, they responded that they were informed of all the problems and the price tag, but were never allowed to inspect the boat, they were not even allowed near it. In a case like that, I would have responded the same way that they did and refused to pay/reimburse sight-unseen. And the court ruling seems to support the conclusion that their attitude was justified.

Ok, if that truly is the case then I would understand their approach. And it will probably be difficult to find out the full truth in the matter since the owner claims that HR was invited to inspect on several occasions, but only bothered to show up twice.... And the court ruling was made not from HR not having been allowed to inspect, but due to swe consumer/manufacturer laws. (Acc to the municipal court that handled the "trial", the owners failed to prove that the fault exists.. Court wouldnt accept ultrasound examination, tensile strenght tests, expert opinions from 3rd part surveyors etc as evidence since HR president M Rassy said these methods could fail...

[Zanshin]

I don't know where the truth lies since the pictures floating around the web are pretty damning - if true. But I've owned two companies in the past where we bent over backwards in order to avoid spending any time in court and I'm sure that management at Hallberg Rassy feels the same way; so if it did go to court then there are more facts floating around than we are aware of. The plaintiff certainly disseminated the negative information very widely and I don't believe it fair to accuse HR without hearing their side - and since they've been silent n public prior to the court case and people in general will prefer to side with the underdog the views, at least in the forums I visit, are skewed against HR. Whilst there are always going to be lemons out there, it is not without reason that HRs are among the most popular production boats that actually do circumnavigations.

[mintyspilot]

Originally Posted by Zanshin

...The plaintiff certainly disseminated the negative information very widely and I don't believe it fair to accuse HR without hearing their side....

Surely they can put their side of the story on the web as effectively as the plaintiff did? Especially now that the court transcript has put various facts into the public domain?