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Old 24-07-2018, 06:41   #76
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post
Hello,

Now the question is that there are two distinct boat categories that fall into this class:

a) newer (less than 8 year old) production Bene Jean ..

b) and older (usually 20 or more) but well maintained Moodies, Najad, Celestials, maybe even slightly more expensive HL or Oysters ...

Of course it is comparing apple to oranges but that it must the practical choice that most people in our situation are facing. How to compare new production boat with much older more "classy" one.

Any thoughts, comments, ideas?
Both these types of boats are capable of serious well-planned passages. I'm not sure that 'classy' is the right word to describe some of the older boats. Fit for purpose is probably closer to the mark. Many older boats were made for sea in all of their particulars.

Newer boats are sometimes made for anchoring in sunny bays. Many very new boats have huge amounts of room, which is great at anchor but not so great when you're moving around in a seaway. They also tend to have flat underbodies that are prone to pounding upwind - this is tiring - and vast transoms that prone to contributing to broaching off the wind - the avoidance of which can be tiring.

Construction - the older boats - and I'm not talking 60s phalic resins here - are better made, generally. Full lead keels, full isophalic fibreglass construction. Tinned wiring. Lifeline AGMs. Backing plates everywhere. Full glass tabbing of all hull deck joins and all furniture molds. Muscular winches. Mainsheets that are within reach. Not all new production boats are low quality - Catalina still clings to the old ways.

But too many of the latest boats have hulls that are made of something that is not fibreglass. They tend to be too light for their length, under-rigged and under-powered on deck. They're not well set up for anchoring. They'll parse all the electrical systems on the boat across a miserable little switchboard. These visible shortcuts are surely mirrored under the skin.

I was on a brand new 46 foot Beneteau with an electric transom a week or 2 ago, anchored cheekily in about 2.5m of pristine water. Even given the faux wood trim, the cheap-arsed upholstery and the neat looking but crick in the neck inducing design of the integrated targa, it was a lovely place to be.

And yet...those flat stern sections made the boat feel odd in the moderately moving water off Store Beach in a westerly. That big, roomy boat had the fast, firm, tiring roll of something like a Farr 1104.

Ten year old Benes and Jeaneaus are not quite the same underpowered versions of modern race boats, in my opinion.

Probably the best advice is to buy the best quality boat for the type of sailing you intend to do the most of. But if you intend to go to sea, buy a boat that's more or less designed and built to do so.
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Old 24-07-2018, 09:44   #77
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

I truly believe that any boat can go anywhere given the right conditions (read weather and otherwise). That accounts for some designs that have crossed oceans because they were lucky and ever got tested. Sometimes the luck was specifically the captain's experience and knowledge. That also accounts for well designed yachts that went to the bottom because they weren't lucky. Very recently a 46' yacht that had sailed around the world was abandoned off the Washington coast and the crew rescued, only a few miles from completing a circumnavigation.

Offshore sailors should put the odds in their favor and that starts with selecting the correct boat for the waters you are going to be sailing in/across. This can become a problem for someone who bought his boat originally to sail local waters and now has the itch to cross oceans...that was me. After many years sailing the NW, Canada,
and even to Alaska I wanted to sail offshore; a friend even suggested I should enter the Pac Cup race. I tested my boat by sailing counter clock-wise around Vancouver Island, entering the Graveyard of the Pacific for the first time. While still under mild conditions that experience told me to get a bigger, heavier boat.

I built a database of over 3,000 boats in different rigging configurations, ran ratios on them, and sorted it down to around 300 models. Then came the search to see what was available and I could afford...this all took me five years.

The boat is bigger than I originally wanted but is world class and can sail anywhere I choose to go; I trust her with my life. Two years ago returning from Hawaii we entered the Graveyard of the Pacific, got into a gale, were pooped, windvane broke, and forced to hove-to for 30 hours...I was never worried about the boat sinking.

You must have confidence in your vessel because if anything can happen it will happen out there.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
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Old 24-07-2018, 11:51   #78
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Captain Bligh sailed a launch 3600 miles after the Mutiny on the Bounty! Maybe people should rethink the "what boat do I need" thing more.
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Old 24-07-2018, 13:12   #79
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Originally Posted by MJH View Post
I tested my boat by sailing counter clock-wise around Vancouver Island, entering the Graveyard of the Pacific for the first time. While still under mild conditions that experience told me to get a bigger, heavier boat.

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If I may ask, I am curious what was the earlier boat that you replaced with the Tayana?
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Old 24-07-2018, 15:16   #80
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

Just a few random comments. For older boats, I think the critical factor is how well the boat has been maintained above everything else. I've checked out a few older boats where I felt walking on the deck or going below was like taking your life in your hands. And a few older boats that were in better shape than a brand new boat. These are of course rare and were priced significantly above average. One factoid from John Neal's offshore seminar is that only 2 or 3 "project" boats out of 10 make it offshore if you're over fifty. I'm in my 60's and project boats are out for me.

Another thing to consider is whether the boat builder is still in business, or how long ago they went out of business. There are some obvious reasons to know this like being able to contact the builder, but something not generally thought about is the state of the illusive "community". For instance there are two pretty vibrant user groups for Island Packets and yes there are websites for boats like Pearsons, or Bristols, but just the fact that these boats haven't been made for over 20 or even 30 years means there are just fewer boats out there, and fewer sailors who can help you with quirky questions specific to that boat. For example, I was interested in Pearson 422's and several people I spoke with said the hulls were solid fiberglass hulls, yet one CF member told me in refitting his, that when he stripped the gel-coat off the hull, he could see the balsa core.


What I've done is narrow my focus to 3 or 4 boats, then attempt to be my own best expert on those particular boats. You'll know you're there when you speak to a broker and you find that you know more about the known issues of a particular boat than he does. And you can't fully rely on surveyors either. Finally the old benchmark of including 50% of the purchase price for repair/refit is I'm finding much to my chagrin to be pretty accurate. Here's a list of repair/refit items for a boat I recently looked at. And no I didn't purchase this particular boat. Every boat I look at now I create a list like this so I have some hope of getting the boat buying financials right (or at least "less wrong"). Good luck.


Equipment Cost
Standing Rigging $9,000.00
Sails $9,000.00
Dinghy $1,700.00
Outboard $1,700.00
EPIRB $600.00
Life Raft $4,000.00
Generator $12,000.00
Bimini/Dodger $9,000.00
Sail Repair $2,000.00
Bottom Paint $4,000.00
Deck & Steaming Light $1,000.00
Hoses - Holding Tank $1,000.00
Bow Thruster Repair $3,000.00
Windlass $3,000.00
Nav Electronics $8,000.00
A/C - Stern Cabin $2,000.00
Macerator - Service $1,000.00
Propeller - Service $2,000.00
Steering - Service $2,000.00
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Old 29-07-2018, 12:09   #81
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Re: Apples vs Oranges comparing older classy and newer production boat?

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Originally Posted by pskudlarski View Post
If I may ask, I am curious what was the earlier boat that you replaced with the Tayana?
The boat I replaced after 11 years was a San Juan 28. I loved that boat and we had so many good solo trips to Canada and Alaska together. But with a COMFORT ratio of 18.4, CAPSIZE RISK ratio of 2.18, and only weighing 6200 lbs. with limited tankage she was not really designed for the offshore venue. Also with a BALLAST/DISPLACEMENT ratio of 50% she would be certainly overloaded...she had already been overloaded with me going North but that environment has more forgiving options than offshore.

My original desire was for a boat around 37' (don't ask me why) but I couldn't locate anything on my list available within my budget that I liked.

There are thousands of sailboats for sale out there and I'm sure a reasonable number that would meet your requirements after you defined them...just remember what's important.

Good Luck,

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH
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