CE Category A for sailing yachts

[mglonnro]

I didn't want to hijack the thread tobo started regarding the Hanse 548 so here's a new one.

In tobo's thread, some people mention Hanse yachts (in general) being designed to mainly be at anchor or in marinas (not sailing on oceans), so I started wondering about what relevance, if any, the CE category of the yacht might have.

This is probably known to all, but anyway, here's the general statement about design category A:

A. A recreational craft given design category A is considered to be designed for winds that may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4m and above but excluding abnormal conditions such as storm, violent storm, hurricane, tornado and extreme sea conditions or rogue waves.

I skimmed through whatever directive text I could find but couldn't find any exact text answering my questions below:

1) Does the directive specify that a sailing yacht (say, the Hanse 548) must be designed so that it's should be able to travel under sail in the conditions above?

2) Does the directive specify anything particular about the standing or running rigging of a sailboat? Or if not, then anything general or "catch all" that would include these?

I've read several forum posts mentioning "undersized" this and that (of Hanse yachts), and I'm curious whether it's possible to sell a sailing yacht designed for category A conditions that actually needs a lot of upgrades to be able to safely sail in those very same conditions.

[AlfaGTV]

You can download the directive here: https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...X%3A32013L0053

This directive is an economic directive, and describes the minimum requirements for pleasure craft sold in the European community. Compliance with this directive doesn't say much about the build quality or safety of a yacht.

[Albro359]

Here's a link to the CE directive

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...4L0025&from=EN

Because it applies to ALL recreational craft, no it does not specify that a boat should be able to "sail" under those conditions. The CE document uses the word "navigate'

No it does not specify rigging sizes or anything else...the expressions are "appropriate" and the "appropriateness" of all of the structure would be assessed by the inspectors used by the notified body.
If they gave it Class A then they would have agreed that the structure of the vessel is appropriate for that classification, in all respects.

They do change the rules however, and recently a Hanse I think 385 was demoted from Class A to Class B because of the stability calculation.
Before it assumed all crew sitting on the windward rail. Now it assumes all crew to leeward, and with that the Hanse couldn't pass the stability test. The boat hadn't changed, the rule had.
There are many opinions about the construction of these modern yachts..I have my own ...that's why I sail the boat I do...but often it is price that is the driver in both manufacturing and buying decisions made by folk that don't have experience....

[Dockhead]

The CE categories are based on stability, freeboard, scantlings, and other design criteria affecting seaworthiness.


As far as I know, this system is pretty well respected by naval architects as a reasonable set of MINIMUM standards for the type of use corresponding to each category.


I would definitely not have a boat with a CE category less than what I planned to do with it. Having an "A" classification is not enough, by itself, to guaranty that a boat is suitable, but NOT having it pretty much excludes it, in my opinion.

[mglonnro]

Here's the new 2013/53/EU directive:

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...3L0053&from=EN

And a guide to the directive by European Boating Industry:

http://www.europeanboatingindustry.e...df_version.pdf

I've tried my best but still I haven't found a place where, even in broad terms, the manufacturer is required (by the directive) to install for example correctly sized blocks

I'm sure it is there somewhere, but I just can't find it!

Here's an guide for the older directive listing the relevant ISO specifications, but couldn't find anything there either! https://www.dma.dk/SkoleFritidssejla..._20feb2008.pdf

[carstenb]

We're halfway around the world on our RTW in a standard Jeanneau Sun Fast. Class A.

If you are serious about off-shore you will need to look carefully at each part of you boat and determine if it is capable of sailing in the conditions you believe you will experience.

Having said that, statistics show that you will not experience gale force Beaufort 8+) conditions more than something like 5% of the time, but you will be beset by light winds (less than 10 knots) something like 50% of the time (source: Beth Leonard, The Voyagers Handbook + our own log, now 20,000+nm after leaving Copenhagen).

I generally wouldn't worry about it, but I would look very closely at everything jus to be sure.t

[mglonnro]

Originally Posted by carstenb

We're halfway around the world on our RTW in a standard Jeanneau Sun Fast. Class A.

If you are serious about off-shore you will need to look carefully at each part of you boat and determine if it is capable of sailing in the conditions you believe you will experience.

Yes, I get that, and I have been offshore sailing some (checking carefully each part and so forth).

What troubles me is the CE marking and whether buyers (like me) think it's actually addressing things it's really not. There is something wrong somewhere if a vessel designed for "A" conditions needs to be categorically upgraded to actually be safe enough to be sailed in those conditions (by adequately competent crew)

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

I didn't want to hijack the thread tobo started regarding the Hanse 548 so here's a new one.

In tobo's thread, some people mention Hanse yachts (in general) being designed to mainly be at anchor or in marinas (not sailing on oceans), so I started wondering about what relevance, if any, the CE category of the yacht might have.

It's not about Hanse but "high" volume production boats in general, and it's not about seaworthiness or sailing abilities but what's the avarage buyer interested in a new boat.
As most sail never a day or two further from "home" things like tankage, storage and functionality on extended cruising are not the first priorities in their design.

Teddy

[boatman61]

Lloyds Specification 100A had my full confidence.. a surveyor would inspect each stage of the build..
CE.. a minimum acceptable benchmark set by and regulated by Yacht manufactirers to comply with EU regulations I take with a pinch of salt.

[Peregrine1983]

Originally Posted by mglonnro

There is something wrong somewhere if a vessel designed for "A" conditions needs to be categorically upgraded to actually be safe enough to be sailed in those conditions

Good point. I have always wondered about this.

[billknny]

I dismissed the CE rating system for yachts some time ago when I saw a brand new FP catamaran with a Class A rating that did not even have legal navigation lights. WTF?

It is impossible to draw up a comprehensive set of rules that separate all "seaworthy" boats from all "unseaworthy" boats. There are just too many ways of doing things with exceptions and alternatives.

[George DuBose]

I imported a 1973 Pearson 36-1 into the EU several years ago. I paid the VAT in The Netherlands and then had a Dutch firm put the boat through a Post Construction Assessment survey.

The boat had five "defects". There wasn't a second lower life line, I installed one.

The ventilation ducts had no way to shut them off if the boat was rolled over, water could enter. I installed closable plates.

There was no seal on the lazarettes, locks but no seal. I installed seals.

The hatch over the aft lazarette had no lock. I installed one.

The electric bilge pump only had a float switch and was always "on". I was told that one had to turn OFF the bilge pump when not aboard. Hah...I installed a switch in a place that only I know where it is.

One of the ports was fogging due to ancient vinyl in between the plates of glass. I replaced the glass.

I think that there are a bunch of non-sailors in Brussels who have to make rules just to justify their jobs.

When I heard that brass seacocks were being installed by some major manufacturers and that they were susceptible to dezincifying, what does Brussels say? Change the seacocks every five years. I have marine grade bronze Wilcox-Crittenden seacocks that are over 40 years old. After I finished cleaning and polishing them they looked brand new.

No wonder Britain wants to leave the EU.

[roland stockham]

Ignor CE marks and for that matter any other cassification. As skipper it is your responsibilty tocarry out an effective assessment of a vesssels suitability for any particular voyage. A vessel may be perfectly fit for an open sea passage in say the Caribbean or a trade wind atlantic crossing but not for Icelantic waters of the Gulf of Alaska or a winter crossing of Biscay

[nortonscove]

Originally Posted by Albro359

Here's a link to the CE directive

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...4L0025&from=EN

Because it applies to ALL recreational craft, no it does not specify that a boat should be able to "sail" under those conditions. The CE document uses the word "navigate'

No it does not specify rigging sizes or anything else...the expressions are "appropriate" and the "appropriateness" of all of the structure would be assessed by the inspectors used by the notified body.
If they gave it Class A then they would have agreed that the structure of the vessel is appropriate for that classification, in all respects.

They do change the rules however, and recently a Hanse I think 385 was demoted from Class A to Class B because of the stability calculation.
Before it assumed all crew sitting on the windward rail. Now it assumes all crew to leeward, and with that the Hanse couldn't pass the stability test. The boat hadn't changed, the rule had.
There are many opinions about the construction of these modern yachts..I have my own ...that's why I sail the boat I do...but often it is price that is the driver in both manufacturing and buying decisions made by folk that don't have experience....

What of those with lots of experience that still choose the Hanse? Met a group in St. John's NL a couple years ago that had bought the boat and headed across the North Atlantic in late fall with nothing but glowing reviews of the boat even on the worst of days. I think it generally has been stated many a time that it might in fact be the person in charge. This guy was a lifelong sailor probably late sixties or early seventies from Norway. Seemed to have some pretty solid cred that I would not question.

[Tillsbury]

In the context of this forum, the ec directives mean nothing, other than ‘A’ is the absolute minimum you need. The quote you mention refers to force 8, which is only 34 knots of wind. If it can’t handle that comfortably you don’t want to be out of sight of land in it. Interestingly, it specifically excludes “abnormal conditions such as storm...”. That’s 48 knots or more. Now, we all like to think we’re not often going to be caught out in that kind of weather. But when it comes to choosing a boat for my family and me a long way out at sea, its ability to handle those conditions safely is a key consideration.