Laminate Sails on a small Cruiser

[SV_Crucible]

Hey all,

Anyone using laminate sails on a small boat?

I have a 26' Westerly Centaur (twin keeler, relatively heavy, lots of windage)

I'd say upwind performance is poor but my sails are decades old Dacron so they look like old motel mattresses for shape and the mainsail draft is very deep even with the foot stretched tight and backstay cranked down.

I'm obviously going to need new sails and a few lofts keep trying to sell me Dacron, why? Sure it's cheaper initially but it sounds the material will stretch a lot and I need good performance.

I'm a cruiser but for the next few years, probably, I'll be in BC/Alaska so high currents and narrow channels, lots of tacking and many days of winds below 5kts; pretty challenging. So yeah, I want my two most often used sails (main and #2 genoa) to be the best I can get. I'll need 3 reef points, that much I know. Is there some problem with small laminate sails I don't know?

Only problem I can see is during sail changes I usually cram the foresail down the forward hatch; is that going to cause damage? How about slab reefing the main?

[psk125]

Laminated sails are not going to like the way you plan to treat them. Our neighbors take their laminated mainsails off their J/109’s after sailing and ROLL them, because creases from folding them would reduce their already short (3-4 season?) useful lives. Our neighbors do have r/f jibs, so the jibs get rolled that way. Then they hoist Sunbrella covers over the furled jibs to protect them from UV degradation. Stuffing your jib down the forward hatch would be a hungry sailmaker’s dream come true: new sails maybe every other season. New sails may help your Westerly Centaur perform better, but your twin keels are going to prevent any real performance: there is simply too much drag. Twin keels were developed to allow people in overcrowded anchorages (especially in England) to use shallow moorings that dried out at low tide. The boats stand on their twin keels in the mud, and the owners accept the mediocre performance of the boats as better than no boat. The prevailing winds in England are also considerably more than 5 knots. A laminated sail will cost a LOT more than a dacron one, but will not make much difference in performance on your boat, compared to a dacron one. A laminate will likely not last as long, either. This is why sailmakers are pushing you away from laminated sails: they’re not in your best interest as far as R.O.I. results go, and they’re not in the sailmaker’s best interest in terms of having a happy long-term customer.

[model 10]

I'm finding that Hood Vectron fabric is holding up pretty well. Not a laminate, but a step up from regular Polyester.

[Jim Cate]

Another option is Hydra Net, which is a woven fabric made from dacron and spectra yarns. Has considerably lower stretch than regular dacron and much better shape retention, better sun and chafe resistance and isn't bothered so much by the slings and arrows of outrageous cruiser abuse. Not cheap, but long lasting and durable.

We've done around 20,000 miles on our Hydra Net radial main and he shape is still pretty much as new. Genoa is a little younger and similarly untouched by usage.

We're happy with them!

Jim

[Dockhead]

Not on a small boat, but I have had tremendously good experience with laminate sails, so good that I don't think I would go back to woven sails, for any boat big or small.


The benefits are not as profound for smaller boats, but then the cost will be much less, too. They are lighter and more flexible than woven sails, and don't stretch seemingly at all, so you have much greater range of adjustment when you trim them.


Do not however flog them, and don't wad them up. They need to be flaked or rolled carefully.



Cruising laminates -- with taffetta on both sides -- will last far more than "3 or 4 seasons". That comment pertains to naked racing ones, not the cruising ones. Mine are in their 5th season with at least 15 000 miles of sailing on them, and still look and perform more or less like new.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by Ecos

I'm finding that Hood Vectron fabric is holding up pretty well. Not a laminate, but a step up from regular Polyester.

Our Vectron sails have alot of miles on them and they still have good shape. Probably 30,000+ miles on them.

[thomm225]

Dacron sails will be fine for your boat.

Laminate sails will not improve it's performance over good Dacron sails anyway.

Your boat like mine is just not going to point very well.

If you are worried about stretch get thicker sails.

The new main I had built for my boat is 8 oz and has stretched very little since 2012. I use my boat quite a bit also. Plus the sail cover usually does not get put back on right after use

The thicker sail holds it's shape nicely also. I do which I had gotten 3 sets of reef points though instead of just one.

My prior boats which I raced didn't have reef points. I had a mylar main on one and technora on another. Not sure what the spinnakers were made of

BTW, Bacon Sails in Annapolis has a new 6 oz Dacron Mainsail that will fit your boat for $895. Plus they have several good jibs from maybe $250 - $475

https://baconsails.com/bacon/select_sailboat_API.php

[SV_Crucible]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Another option is Hydra Net, which is a woven fabric made from dacron and spectra yarns. Has considerably lower stretch than regular dacron and much better shape retention, better sun and chafe resistance and isn't bothered so much by the slings and arrows of outrageous cruiser abuse. Not cheap, but long lasting and durable.

We've done around 20,000 miles on our Hydra Net radial main and he shape is still pretty much as new. Genoa is a little younger and similarly untouched by usage.

We're happy with them!

Jim

Hi Jim,

What size is your boat? I was looking at the UK Sails website just now and they say it's a material for "big boats".

[SV_Crucible]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Our Vectron sails have alot of miles on them and they still have good shape. Probably 30,000+ miles on them.

May I ask what size of boat you have? 30'000 miles is a lot! I am looking into this sailcloth now

[SV_Crucible]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Not on a small boat, but I have had tremendously good experience with laminate sails, so good that I don't think I would go back to woven sails, for any boat big or small.


The benefits are not as profound for smaller boats, but then the cost will be much less, too. They are lighter and more flexible than woven sails, and don't stretch seemingly at all, so you have much greater range of adjustment when you trim them.


Do not however flog them, and don't wad them up. They need to be flaked or rolled carefully.



Cruising laminates -- with taffetta on both sides -- will last far more than "3 or 4 seasons". That comment pertains to naked racing ones, not the cruising ones. Mine are in their 5th season with at least 15 000 miles of sailing on them, and still look and perform more or less like new.

So if I stuff a cruising laminate sail below decks during a sail change even if it has taffeta on the outside layers I'm going to be drastically shortening the sail's life?

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by SV_Crucible

So if I stuff a cruising laminate sail below decks during a sail change even if it has taffeta on the outside layers I'm going to be drastically shortening the sail's life?

Not good for any sail, and particularly not good for a laminated sail.

Here is a better, and just as easy plan:

When you drop your sail let it lie inside the lifelines. If you have lacing on the bow between the deck and the lifeline it won't go off the boat. We have a long sausage bag which zips up. We lay that bag on the deck and drop the sail onto it, then a little bit of flaking and you can zip up the bag and the sail does not have to be crammed down below.

BTW, good dacron sails will be really fine and much cheaper. We have a full set of high tech racing sails but we use dacron for cruising.

[SV_Crucible]

Originally Posted by psk125

Laminated sails are not going to like the way you plan to treat them. Our neighbors take their laminated mainsails off their J/109’s after sailing and ROLL them, because creases from folding them would reduce their already short (3-4 season?) useful lives. Our neighbors do have r/f jibs, so the jibs get rolled that way. Then they hoist Sunbrella covers over the furled jibs to protect them from UV degradation. Stuffing your jib down the forward hatch would be a hungry sailmaker’s dream come true: new sails maybe every other season. New sails may help your Westerly Centaur perform better, but your twin keels are going to prevent any real performance: there is simply too much drag. Twin keels were developed to allow people in overcrowded anchorages (especially in England) to use shallow moorings that dried out at low tide. The boats stand on their twin keels in the mud, and the owners accept the mediocre performance of the boats as better than no boat. The prevailing winds in England are also considerably more than 5 knots. A laminated sail will cost a LOT more than a dacron one, but will not make much difference in performance on your boat, compared to a dacron one. A laminate will likely not last as long, either. This is why sailmakers are pushing you away from laminated sails: they’re not in your best interest as far as R.O.I. results go, and they’re not in the sailmaker’s best interest in terms of having a happy long-term customer.

Hmm, well I suspect the sailmaker that tried to sell me all Dacron had ulterior motives such as that's all they have in stock or they haven't used anything else on the water. I also asked them about a #1 genoa for winds 6 knots and under and they suggested 5 oz Dacron...I may be relatively inexperienced but I spent a LOT of time in light airs this summer and there's no way I would have a #1 genoa that heavy on my boat, it would collapse too easily. I wouldn't take the sail if it were free.

Again I'm inexperienced and I could be way off on this but it seems to me like there's a bit of resistance among some cruisers to adopting new or non conventional sails. I've never heard a cruiser who actually has laminate sails or something non-conventional utter a word of regret.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be rude; just to be clear but when it comes to a complex decision like sails, I have to be skeptical about everything I read.

Edit: oh yes, your comment on my stuffing headsails down the forward hatch: Has it been your personal experience that this shortens the life of a cruising laminate sail or how did you conclude this would cause a sail to be damaged rapidly? I would imagine, this late in the game for sailmakers, they would have addressed this issue as pretty much any short or singlehanded sailor is going to use this method with hanked on sails in rough weather and not much sea room.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by SV_Crucible

Hi Jim,

What size is your boat? I was looking at the UK Sails website just now and they say it's a material for "big boats".

Well, when I'm standing under the boat holding a sheet of sandpaper it is a damn big boat.

When at sea in harsh weather, it's a damn small boat!

but in fact, she is ~13.7 meters OAL, 9.5 tonnes light ship displacement, and both genoa and main are around 55 square meters.

A photo just to the left of this post, a few more in my profile.

Jim

[SV_Crucible]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Not good for any sail, and particularly not good for a laminated sail.

Here is a better, and just as easy plan:

When you drop your sail let it lie inside the lifelines. If you have lacing on the bow between the deck and the lifeline it won't go off the boat. We have a long sausage bag which zips up. We lay that bag on the deck and drop the sail onto it, then a little bit of flaking and you can zip up the bag and the sail does not have to be crammed down below.

BTW, good dacron sails will be really fine and much cheaper. We have a full set of high tech racing sails but we use dacron for cruising.

That's a good idea about the headsail handling. I'm not sure I will bother if I end up getting Dacron again as it seems to not be affected adversely but if I get something else I will have to try that.

How much cheaper were your Dacron sails? For Dacron thus far I've been quoted anywhere from $2000-2500 for a mainsail and haven't heard back from anyone on other material but from what I've read it would be 3000-4000 which seems well worth it considering how long other materials hold their shape vs Dacron. I might get a heavy duty Dacron for when I go offshore in a few years but am not sure. Unfortunately I have to get new sails before I have much experience actually sailing as the bottom third of my main is so baggy it can't be controlled. Apart from initial purchase price, I'm not getting many good reasons to buy the stuff.

I also notice a lot of cruisers use their engines for pretty much everything except beam reaching and downwind points of sail and think flooded lead acid batteries are a good deal, too

[SV_Crucible]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, when I'm standing under the boat holding a sheet of sandpaper it is a damn big boat.

When at sea in harsh weather, it's a damn small boat!

but in fact, she is ~13.7 meters OAL, 9.5 tonnes light ship displacement, and both genoa and main are around 55 square meters.

A photo just to the left of this post, a few more in my profile.

Jim

Haha those are good answers! Yes when in the boatyard we all wish we were the owners of a day sailer I suppose.

So your boat isn't huge but compared to mine it's big.

I wish I could see your boat but it doesn't seem to work on my phone.

Well I guess I will give UK sails a phone call on Monday to ask them about their x drive glassfibre so I can stop posting ad nauseam on CF