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Old 06-12-2016, 21:17   #1
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Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

Hello everyone,

I’ve read the forum for a few years but never had the need to post. I have some thoughts that I’d like some input on.

My wife and I are looking to get our first small cruising boat, and I’d like some experienced input. Specifically, I’d like everyone’s thoughts on the suitability of the Pacific Seacraft Orion 27 for bluewater cruising verses a classic larger, heavier, cruiser like a Westsail 32.

Pacific Seacraft Orion 27:
--LOA: 30′ 11″ (including bowsprit)
--LOD: 27′ 4″
--LWL: 22′ 2″
--Beam: 9′ 3″
--Draft: 4′ 0″
--Displacement: 10,000 lbs.
--Ballast: 3,500 lbs.
--Cutter Sail Area: 508 sq.ft.

Westsail 32:
--LOA: 40′ (including bowsprit and boomkin)
--LOD: 32′ 0″
--LWL: 27′ 6″
--Beam: 11′ 0″
--Draft: 5′ 0″
--Displacement: 19,500 lbs.
--Ballast: 7,000 lbs.
--Sail Area: 629 sq. ft.

Doing a little arithmetic to help compare, I get:

Displacement / Length Ratio D/L 409.9 (Orion) 418.6 (WS32)
Ballast / Displacement B/D 0.35 (Orion) 0.36 (WS32)
Sail Area / Displacement SA/D 17.5 (Orion) 13.9 (WS32)

I know this isn’t really apples to apples, but the displacement to length ratio shows both boats are pretty heavy (over 400), the ballast / displacement ratio shows them to likely have similar stability (caveat: we understand this is actually very dependent on location of ballast), and the sail area / displacement is interesting with the Orion cutter being a little more canvased.

Overall, the Orion looks like a scaled down Westsail 32 with a little more sale area.

I’ll add to this post momentarily with more background information.

Michael
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Old 06-12-2016, 21:21   #2
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

About our preferences:
We are interested in going very simple. We love camping/backpacking/4x4 jeep trips... We don’t need a lot of creature comforts or fancy technology gizmos. We “just” want a small, safe, solid, simple, affordable, bluewater cruising boat. We are both engineers, mechanically inclined, and very handy, so we can fix up any boat, but it would be nice to start with a clean boat. A 40 year old boat is fine, but newer is fine, too.

Boat size:
All of our experience is in smaller boats. We can likely afford to purchase any reasonable used boat, but the less we spend, and the simpler we go, the longer we can afford to cruise. We have been married a good many years, and we very much enjoy each other’s company. We don’t have kids. We are minimalists, and very organized, so we tend to make good use of small volumes. We are both 40-ish, healthy, and fit, but we want a boat that one of us can easily solo if needed. We have read much from Slocum, Moitessier, Lin and Larry Pardey, Bruce Halabisky, Chuck and Laura Rose, and others, and we think we would like to go small and simple. We are open to larger boats if they are notably safer or “better”.

Where it will be sailed:
First, pacific coastal cruising (California, Oregon, Washington, and “maybe” Alaska). In a few years, down the pacific coast and out to Hawaii or the Marquesas (via Mexico). At that point, if we are still having fun, we might just keep heading west from there. We want to slow life down. We are not in a rush.

Our preferences (we can be flexible on many of these):
--Reputation of solid construction
--Solid fiberglass hull (we might consider steel)
--Probably 27ft to 33ft
--As seakindly as we can get in a small-ish boat
--Relatively heavy displacement for its size
--Full keel (or at least a reasonably protected rudder)
--Encapsulated ballast
--Protected prop
--Tiller
--Cutter rig
--Easily inspected chain plates (exterior of hull would be nice)
--Comfortably secure deck
--Deck stepped mast
--Small well drained cockpit
--No teak deck
--Minimal brightwork
--I’m 6’2” (I don’t necessarily need to stand in the cabin, but I do need to comfortably fit on a berth)
--It doesn’t need to be fast
--Simple, minimal, reliable systems

What we have seriously looked at:
As a baseline, we have looked at several Westsail 32’s. On paper, we feel that the WS32 meets pretty much all of the above preferences, but we haven’t loved the ones that we have gone to see. We liked the WS32 reputation of durability, but most of them are in pretty terrible shape. The nice ones are a little expensive, but probably doable.

Looking at other options, we have been pleasantly surprised by the layout and simplicity of the Pacific Seacraft Orion 27. It’s certainly a lot smaller and lighter than the WS32, but it somehow seems more open and brighter inside than the WS32. The Orion would be really easy for us to handle, and it seems like a sturdy little boat. We’re seriously looking into the Orion, but we haven’t been able to find much first-hand cruising info on it. We know at least one has circumnavigated, but there isn’t much info available on their bluewater use. With its large keel and sail area, it might not be amazing to windward, but it seems like an interesting option for us.


We’d like to know what people think of the Orion 27 for bluewater. Anyone out there have an Orion and want to chime in? Anyone think the Orion is too small or light to be comfortable out in the Pacific? Would we be better off in the long run in a larger boat like the Westsail 32? Despite the success of Lin and Larry Pardey, is 27 ft just too small for modern provisioning?

Michael
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Old 06-12-2016, 21:21   #3
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

P.s. In the past, we have also considered:
--Westsail 28
--Pacific Seacraft Mariah 31
--Pearson triton 28
--Pacific Seacraft Dana 24
--Cape George 31
--Bristol Channel Cutter 28
--Southern Cross 31
--Nor’Sea 27
--Shannon 28
--Hans Christian 33
--Downeaster 32
--Cape Dory 27
--Cape Dory 30
--Cape Dory 33
--Island Packet 27
--Island Packet 31
--Allied Luders 33
--Albin Vega 27
--Several of the Bruce Roberts steel boats
--The list goes on and on……..

Michael
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Old 06-12-2016, 21:49   #4
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

As you know, the longer the waterline, theoretically the faster the boat. 22 ft waterline is slow as molasses compared to 26ft & up. A boat can get tedious if you can't stand up.(had a 26ft Seafarer with 6'2" headroom--so,-headroom is out there). One person's comfort is another person's excess. ....Some people say, especially for 2 people, you will know the boat you want when you see it.... Kinda like love or lust. I would look at all those gurus who have Offshore Capable boat lists. Of course other boats can fit your needs.
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Old 06-12-2016, 21:54   #5
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

The question of size is one which bears a closer look. As in reality, the Pardey's boats are bigger than their touted small size. As their "30'" boat was about 40' long, with sprit & boomkin. And at 9t+ weighs as much as almost any 40'er, & more than quite a few.


The same measurement scale applies to their other boat, as it does to ones like Westsails. Which at 9t, & 40' OAL, are no longer small. Though their sail area is. So don't let people's idyllic numbers alter your perceptions. Especially as when you have to pay slip fees, it's the bigger number that you'll be charged for. And the same "rates" will apply when you're buying anchors, & sails. Since it's tonnage, windage, & righting moment, that are the key factors for such.


You mentioned that boats like the Westsail seem darker inside, which definitely is true. Though that can actually be a nice perk if you're spending a lot of time where the sun can be exceedingly bright, or even harsh. So it's not all bad. Ditto on having much of the boat/boat's accomodations below the WL.
Go & view a few on a hot summer's day to try it out, especially if you can see the other candidate boats on the same day. Or under similar light & heat conditions.


As to size, few people regret having too much storage onboard. Well, so long as they don't overload the boat. And my mode of thinking is that I'd rather have the accomodations of a 30' boat in a 40' hull, in a boat that sails well. Not that I mind small boats. But whatever you choose, it's best to ensure that both of you are comfortable (& able) to do/doing every job onboard. For a bunch of key reasons, even if only one of you routinely is the skipper, & each of you normally has certain designated jobs.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:01   #6
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

Allied boats are "built like tanks". Westerly from England. I bet you won't buy one, but take a look inside a Catalina 30. It will give you a great idea of room and comfort in a 30 ft boat. I always tell a married guy if he needs to talk his wife into sailing to see a Catalina 30. (For you it's just a reference point). You are looking at high quality Water boats">blue water boats.
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Old 06-12-2016, 22:25   #7
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

The Island Packet 27 is a pretty compact but "big" boat. We love our HC33, and you could let the outside wood go silver so you wouldn't have to mess with bright work. As mentioned above Prism comes in at 41' LOA which at a slip you pay for. If you plan on cruising this is not as much of a deal breaker and at least in latin america you generally always get charged what your documentation lists, in our case 32.9ft. The nice thing about 35' and under boats are the relative size of systems compared to the 40' brethren. Prism is a very overbuilt 33 and is on the upper end of the scale for parts and pieces of gear being small enough for us to handle moving ourselves (engine, mast, bowsprit, large sails) Also another benefit is that all systems on the boat this size and smaller seem to be much less expensive.
We went through the same list you have when buying a new boat. We had a big 28 foot boat at the time (caliber 28) and really didn't want to go much bigger, just wanted more displacement and a bowsprit. The HC33 is defiantly the biggest small boat we have ever been on. It is very comfortable to sail and live on full time as well. But it is also one of the most expensive boats on your list.

Cheers,

Jon
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Old 07-12-2016, 01:17   #8
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

At 10,000lbs and similar length and beam, the Orion is of similar size to our Allied Seawind. We carry 100 gallons of water. We have food and fuels stores for 6+ months. We do not store anything on deck, unless it is pertinent to sailing/anchoring. And we still have plenty of left over space available. If you keep it simple like you want and provision carefully, I think you would find the Orion to have ample room. They seem like solid boats.

I have been aboard a westsail 32 and I thought it seemed twice as big as our Allied Seawind 30.

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Old 07-12-2016, 01:52   #9
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

There is a nice looking Westsail 32 on sailboatlings by owner, I think it's in Burlington WA, asking 44,900, mine is in Oak Harbor WA, this one appears to be in go shape, no teak decks also,
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Old 07-12-2016, 02:43   #10
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

It's in Bellingham WA,
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Old 07-12-2016, 03:30   #11
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Michael.
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Old 07-12-2016, 07:26   #12
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

I have an Orion 27. I love it. It was hard to find the combo I wanted; tiller, dinette layout. Sails well, not as fast as a lighter boat with a longer waterline, but nice motion in rougher water. As for head room etc. being built over 30 years ago, average heights were less than they are now, at 6'2" you may find your head or feet touching the ends of the berths and skimming the cabin top. There is also a fair bit of teak on the exterior.
That being said, I haven't been on a boat I'd rather own. Where abouts in California are you located? I'll be in the LA area for the next week, then heading south, bound for baja. Pretty busy getting a few last minute things ready, but I can always make time to give you a look around.

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Old 07-12-2016, 07:40   #13
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

Nor'Sea Guenevere's Adventures, main page

They Cruised Mexico for a hand full of years and then put the Boat on the trailer and went to Florida on their Norsea 27
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Old 07-12-2016, 08:19   #14
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DawnTreader View Post
At 10,000lbs and similar length and beam, the Orion is of similar size to our Allied Seawind. We carry 100 gallons of water. We have food and fuels stores for 6+ months. We do not store anything on deck, unless it is pertinent to sailing/anchoring. And we still have plenty of left over space available. If you keep it simple like you want and provision carefully, I think you would find the Orion to have ample room. They seem like solid boats.

I have been aboard a westsail 32 and I thought it seemed twice as big as our Allied Seawind 30.
Brian
A Westsail 32' IS twice as big as your boat. Check the displacement numbers
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Old 07-12-2016, 08:58   #15
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Re: Couple Cruising Under 30ft?

Slightly off topic, as your question was about the Orion, but I didn't see the Baba 30 on your list of considerations. We owned and sailed one for many years, and she was always a delight. I think you might find it neatly positioned between the Orion and the Westsail. There are also quite a few for sale at the moment.
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