37' Atkins Ingrid Ketch

[Carogan]

Hello all!

I'm new to this lifestyle, so I'm afraid that at this point in time I'll have a lot more questions to ask as opposed to being able to contribute to the wisdom that many of you bring to this board. In time I hope to change that (and the sooner I can leap into the dream the sooner I can impart my newly found wisdom to the masses as well!)

That said I'm hoping that some of you could give me your thoughts to whether this particular boat I've found might be a good match for me.

I live in the Lower Mainland in British Columbia (Vancouver/Pacific Northwest) and would like to find a liveaboard that would eventually allow me to do some longer voyages to the Caribbean or even beyond if possible.

I am a very new sailer - as in I've just recieved my operator's license and am in the middle of sailing lessons now. I am 40 years old, very keen, very energetic, and not afraid to take on a tough challenge.

I'm not new to being around the water, despite my newness to sailing. I grew up on boats and lived on the coast all my life. Living the lifestyle and dealing with the elements and issues of sealife won't be a surprise to me.

I found this gorgeous-to-the-eye Ingrid Ketch online which falls well into my price range (very affordable) and appears at first glance to meet all my criteria.

It is advertised as an "all wood" boat, and I am aware that upkeep and maintenance is obviously something that needs to be seriously considered particularly for an older wooden boat. One of my questions is - HOW MUCH WORK should I expect to put into it? I could find myself being very passionate about this boat and showing it a lot of love - but I am leery about becoming a slave to it.

Also, I am aware that the hull, deck, connections, through-hull fittings, mast etc. should all be reviewed by a qualified surveyor prior to my purchase (along with the engine, etc)

Furthermore, as a new sailor I am cognizant that ketch rigs do not appear to be in vogue (as demonstrated by the other thread going in this forum about the death of ketch rigging!). Are ketch rigs an inferior and less efficient design? Why are they no longer popular anymore, and will I have far less enjoyment with sailing by getting into something like this?

Is this type of setup something that a new (but keen) sailer could handle single handed, or am I smoking something when I consider this?

I've read some positive reviews about the Ingrids, but always in terms of comparing to other boats. I haven't seen any specific reviews about this boat - maybe some of you can share your thoughts on it with me.

Your input would be greatly appreciated!! I am excited at the thought of going and checking this boat out.

Let me know! Thanks to all of you for building a great website here on cruiser's forum.

Rob

[vtcapo]

I hate to burst your bubble concerning the Ingrid 37 because I love the design. But if you are concerned about being a slave to your boat I would stay away from wood. Particularly in something of that vintage.

If you are in love with double-enders in that size range I would look into older fiberglass models such as the Tayana 37, Rafiki 37, and the Slocum 37 if you can find one. All are cutter rigged which is the rig of choice for most cruisers. I own a Slocum.

I have also owned a wooden sailboat before as well as currently owning a 1954 18' Lyman runabout. Maintenance is a never ending chore and will take away from your sailing experience.

I am sure you will get varied opinions concerning this. I would only get into a wood boat if I was a ships carpenter and knew how to do ALL the deck, plank and interior repairs.

Just my 2 cents...

RT

[IolantheSF]

We have owned an Atkins Thistle for 10 years. We have not been slaves to it. Owning a wooden boat is an act of love. We have learned that the best varnish is Le Tonkinois. It soaks into the wood and protects better than anything else. Requires a coat every 6months. The hull material is important. Ours is teak on hardwood. The deck has probably been the biggest challenge. Once we recalked the deck we started coating it with the same varnish. It pretty much solved leaks.
Ingrid's are notorious for being made with ferrocement, which I would stay far away from.
Initially you will have some work but after the initial put yourself on a maintenance schedule and you will love her as we do.

[Cheechako]

For a first boat, a big old wooden Ingrid might go along way toward making you give up sailing! Dont get me wrong, I love wood boats (especially someone elses!) But you need to get out sailing and cruising.... It takes just the right person to use and maintain a wood boat, many get discouraged. What's your budget?

[roverhi]

See if you can find a review of the Alajuela 38. That was an optimized for performance Ingrid. There were also a bunch of FRP Ingrid hulls built in the PNW, Bluewater boats was one of them. Almost all were owner built so quality of construction varies greatly but there have been some good prices on these boats.

The ketch rig is a bit of an anachronism with modern materials. In the good old days of cotton sails and organic lines, it was almost necessary to make sails as small as possible for handling by the short handed sailor. The split rigs are also supposedly easier to balance out and make self steer. The rigs typically aren't as tall as a modern sloop rig so aren't as efficient sailors in light air. Ketches also aren't the best sailors hard on the wind. The main blankets the mizzen making it pretty much useless till you crack off a bit. You have the wind resistance of the mizzen without producing drive. You also have the added expense and maintenance of a second mast.

Modern materials have pretty much made split rigs unnecessary. No longer a need to wrestle heavy water soaked cotton sails. Slab reefing and roller furling have made handling the much lighter dacron sails very easy. Having said that, a ketch rigged boat will still sail well. Not as efficient as a sloop, but still quite respectable. The ketch is very easy to reduce sail if you get surprised by a squall, just drop the main and run under mizzen and jib. That's known as sailing under 'jib and jigger'. A ketch wouldn't be my rig of choice but wouldn't turn one down if I liked the boat.

An Ingrid can be sailed short handed but it's a BIG 38' boat. Displacement is almost 30,000 pounds. With the bowsprit, you are probably north of 45' overall length. That will cost you in a marina as they almost all charge for overall length. The Ingrid is generally thought to be one of the best sailors that William Atkins designed. I owned a Westsail 32, a stubbier version of the Ingrid, and found it to be a great boat for long distance cruising. Not much fun for day sailing, however. Kind of like the difference between driving a Suburban and a Porsche 911. Atkin's boats have a reputation for being stable and stout boats without squarely handling that would make them difficult to sail.

As far as a wooden boat, they require maintenance. It's not an all consuming need but you do have to stay on top of them. Fresh water is the killer of boats so deck leaks have to be looked after quickly. If the boat is galvanized fastened, it will bleed rust constantly. You can't neglect haul outs and bottom painting. You don't want the worms to take a bite. A plus is everything is repairable with fairly simple hand tools for someone with decent skills. I wouldn't own a wooden boat because I'm just too lazy to stay ahead of varnish and paint.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Carogan]

Wow! Your responses have all been great so far! Thank you for all your input - every reply will be considered.

I'm finding myself in this emotional tug-of-war right at the moment. As vtcapo and Cheechako have warned I am very concerned about the amount of upkeep that might be required to maintain a boat such as this. However as IlontheSF has said, I can see something like this as "an act of love" for myself too.

And its when I hear comments such as roverhi say that maintenance "is not all consuming" then I am still somewhat hooked.

So the question is, when everyone is saying that something like this takes a lot of maintenance, can you quantify how much is "a lot of maintenance" - ie. what kind of maintenance schedule should I be putting myself on such as IolantheSF suggest I should? I suppose I visualize (and hope) that this would no different than maintaining one's house? (which in all respects it would be as this would be a liveaboard if I end up choosing this).

I would love to check out Tayanas, Rafikis and others however my budget is very limited and most any other boats of this ilk simply fall multiple order of magnitudes above my current budget. The Ingrid is currently listed at $22,000 - I haven't seen any Tayanas listed below $80k so far. I have seen a beautiful Cheoy Lee 35' (fibreglass hull) at $31,500 but even that is above my budget at this point.

Further info I've received on this listing:

Built in Berkeley, CA
By Kramer Rohfleish and Bud Wetherell
Launched in 1956
Draft: 5’6”
Beam: 11’6”
LWL: 32’
LOA: 37’6” (44' to tip of bowsprit)
Displacement: 26,000 lbs

1) Port Orford cedar (double spilled 1 ¼ x 6) 19) New Bronze traveler (1994)
2) Oak frames (bent) 20) New Boomkin 1994
3) 7 sails (in great condition) 21) New main sail cover (2009)
4) Autohelm 4000 22) New Genoa bag (2009)
5) 4 anchors (1 CQR, 3 Danforth ) 23) SS rigging with Running Back stay’s
6) Teak deck 1 ¼ over ½ marine ply 24) Depth sounder
7) Fuel tanks in SS 25 gallons x2 25) Log (Signet)
4 Water tanks (90 Gall est.) 26)110v AC shore power
8) Alcohol stove 27) Drop leaf salon table
9) Iron keel 10,000 lbs 28) Ritchie compass
10) New toilet 2006 29) 2 clocks, 1 barometer
11) Manual bilge pump x1 (Whale) 30) USA Documents
12) Automatic bilge pumps x2 (Rule) 31) CANADA Documents
13) New battery 8D (2010) 32) Spruce masts. Hollow
14) New Charger (2010) 33) 2 Spruce whisker poles
15) Perkins 4.107 52 hp Diesel 4 cyl 34) Cockpit cushions
16) Holding tank (bladder) 35) Insulated ice box.
17) New rudder 1994 36) Manual windless

4 sails on board. Main, Stay, Genoa, Mizzen.

Also #1 jib, Storm sail, Light Genoa, Boom staysail, Trysail and an old Mizzen.

Her 4 sails aboard are Made in England. He says that they're "all in great shape."

and yes...the bowsprit adds another 7' of chargeable slip lease length :-(

Please keep your comments coming. They are very much appreciated and your points won't be ignored. Thank you very much.

[Carogan]

Originally Posted by roverhi

See if you can find a review of the Alajuela 38. That was an optimized for performance Ingrid. There were also a bunch of FRP Ingrid hulls built in the PNW, Bluewater boats was one of them. Almost all were owner built so quality of construction varies greatly but there have been some good prices on these boats.

The ketch rig is a bit of an anachronism with modern materials. In the good old days of cotton sails and organic lines, it was almost necessary to make sails as small as possible for handling by the short handed sailor. The split rigs are also supposedly easier to balance out and make self steer. The rigs typically aren't as tall as a modern sloop rig so aren't as efficient sailors in light air. Ketches also aren't the best sailors hard on the wind. The main blankets the mizzen making it pretty much useless till you crack off a bit. You have the wind resistance of the mizzen without producing drive. You also have the added expense and maintenance of a second mast.

Modern materials have pretty much made split rigs unnecessary. No longer a need to wrestle heavy water soaked cotton sails. Slab reefing and roller furling have made handling the much lighter dacron sails very easy. Having said that, a ketch rigged boat will still sail well. Not as efficient as a sloop, but still quite respectable. The ketch is very easy to reduce sail if you get surprised by a squall, just drop the main and run under mizzen and jib. That's known as sailing under 'jib and jigger'. A ketch wouldn't be my rig of choice but wouldn't turn one down if I liked the boat.

An Ingrid can be sailed short handed but it's a BIG 38' boat. Displacement is almost 30,000 pounds. With the bowsprit, you are probably north of 45' overall length. That will cost you in a marina as they almost all charge for overall length. The Ingrid is generally thought to be one of the best sailors that William Atkins designed. I owned a Westsail 32, a stubbier version of the Ingrid, and found it to be a great boat for long distance cruising. Not much fun for day sailing, however. Kind of like the difference between driving a Suburban and a Porsche 911. Atkin's boats have a reputation for being stable and stout boats without squarely handling that would make them difficult to sail.

As far as a wooden boat, they require maintenance. It's not an all consuming need but you do have to stay on top of them. Fresh water is the killer of boats so deck leaks have to be looked after quickly. If the boat is galvanized fastened, it will bleed rust constantly. You can't neglect haul outs and bottom painting. You don't want the worms to take a bite. A plus is everything is repairable with fairly simple hand tools for someone with decent skills. I wouldn't own a wooden boat because I'm just too lazy to stay ahead of varnish and paint.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Its funny because you hear people argue about ketchs being both more efficient in light air by some, and not being as efficient by others. This makes things very confusing when now being faced with this decision - but your points to back up your opinion make logical sense. I think that I've heard the same opinion as yours that in general ketchs will be a touch slower than the typical sloop hard on the wind.

As for the displacement of the boat, am I understanding correctly when people say that the bigger displacement does make the voyage much more comfortable for longer trips and your not being tossed around by the seas as much? Are there positives to having that kind of displacement, or is it better in general for someone who will be single-handing most of the time to find something a little less massive? I do appreciate the surburban-porsche comparison. I suppose that I can accept this characteristic for weekend sailing as long as the boat will get me to where I need to go in an acceptable time-frame, was good for a liveaboard, and was a useful choice for the longer voyages I'd hope to take in the future. I suppose I'd be more concerned if you used a tractor-porsche comparison unless you people suggest that the needs I'm seeking might not be met either.

[Carogan]

Originally Posted by roverhi

As far as a wooden boat, they require maintenance. It's not an all consuming need but you do have to stay on top of them. Fresh water is the killer of boats so deck leaks have to be looked after quickly. If the boat is galvanized fastened, it will bleed rust constantly. You can't neglect haul outs and bottom painting. You don't want the worms to take a bite. A plus is everything is repairable with fairly simple hand tools for someone with decent skills. I wouldn't own a wooden boat because I'm just too lazy to stay ahead of varnish and paint.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Oh...one other note. Yes, apparently the boat is galvanized fastened as you said. I'll have to look into the rust bleeding issue you've raised as well. Would this simply be a constant washing issue, or are their further problems that can occur? And is there a way to alleviate this problem?

[JDS61]

I had a wooden Igrid built in 1950 iron fastened for 18 years that I sailed to New Zealand in it in the 1970's and 80's. A great sea boat, fast and responsive, forgiving and won't let you down in any conditions. Do iron fastening bleed? yes they do but so do I. Bleeding is only a cosmetic issue but refastening can be an issue at that age. Refastening is not a deal killer and not a difficult task, just something to be aware of. There will be more work but so what, the boat I had before the Ingrid was a 1904 Herreshoff yawl so you know where I am coming from. Who you pick for a surveyor is paramont, most of them will not be able to help you with this boat, hanging around the boat yards in Port Townsend for a week will be a week well spent.

[vtcapo]

Originally Posted by Carogan

Oh...one other note. Yes, apparently the boat is galvanized fastened as you said. I'll have to look into the rust bleeding issue you've raised as well. Would this simply be a constant washing issue, or are their further problems that can occur? And is there a way to alleviate this problem?

Wooden boats with galvanized fasteners! You are asking for trouble. I disagree with JDS61. My first boat was a 1950 Herreshoff 6 meter 7/8th sloop that was mahogany over oak and was galvanized fastenend. In a boat that age circa 1956 you will undoubtably have some issues with your oak frames and planks. I certainly did and ALL my gavanized fasteners had to be drilled out.

You are just asking for trouble. If you look and are patient you could possibly come across something like this.

TAYANA T37 Pilothouse Ketch in Sailboats | eBay Motors

The pilothouse makes her a rare bird.

RT

[senormechanico]

My boat is fiberglass and Airex.
My house's dock is wood.
Guess which I like better...

[bruce smith]

Fastening sickness is very serious. 60 yo galv screws, uh uh.
I may be the last person to talk a person out of an Inbred, but rust is as bad as rot for wood. And the oak frames are also probably due for re newing. Betcha they are black from rust.
The hull and rig are suited to each other. If she was bronze fastened and had other than oak frames, I'd say go for it.

[bobconnie]

Wooden boats are More labor intensive, With a good survey Maybe ! If ya get a good one and ya don't mind the extra work involved with a wood boat, you will have a great sea boat ! and as far as ketchs go ! they have more sail combos available to you, smaller sails , easier to raise and lower them because of thier size, and anchor better because of the mizzon sails weather cocking ability! just my 2 cents, get a GOOD survey! from a wooden boat surveyer!!

[Cheechako]

I'll tell you this... any boat can take a lot of time to maintain. Wood doubly so and doubly important that you do so. Heck, even a fiberglass boat loaded with wood like the Hans Christian in my avatar is a nightmare to maintain.... trust me... you wont have any issues with not having a "labor of love".... even with a fiberglass boat!

[BozSail]

You might consider looking at a Pearson 35 made from 1969 to about 1981. They are fiberglass and pretty sturdy. Not as big as the 38 footer you're looking at, but a good and solid boat. And... you can probably pick one up that is well within your budget. Try th link below and scroll down to the 35 footers. I'm sure the selling prices of these boats is well below the asking prices (as is true for all used boat sales today).

Pearson sailboats for sale by owner.

Good luck with your search.