What is the best boat to buy?

[Augi]

What is the best boat to buy per the following parameters:

1. Budget of $300K(or less), including refit or repairs if buying used boat. Will sell boat after 5 years, so buying a boat that will depreciate less is a plus and cost less to own is a plus.

2. Boat will be based at Channel Islands Harbor, Oxnard, Ca, to have easy access to sail the Channel islands National Park a week or two at a time.

3. Every other year will move the boat to La Paz, Mx and back. For sure I will sail the boat south and is a plus is if the boat is comfortable enough and, stout enough to handle the trip north including if conditions dictate the best route is sailing enough west with wind on the beam so when you make the right turn the wind can be kept more or less on the beam and lay for Ensenada or San Diego. If not, trucking from northern end of the Sea of Cortez to Ensenada is the alternative to sailing the 1000+ miles north.

4. Will always have 2-3 crew total on board including me.

5. I will be sailing 8 weeks a year usually 1 week at a time and for no more than two weeks(so my wife does not divorce me).

6. I want the boat to provide the most fun sailing as possible. I don't want to suffer but only need basic comforts since I will be on the boat at the most two weeks at a time.

7. Of the new boats to satisfy the above parameters, I like the idea of:

A. JPK 38 FC

B. Pogo 30, or Pogo 36 or Pogo 12.5

C. RN 10.70 or RN 12.70

8. I like the above a boats because they are built to cross oceans, are fun and lively to sail, have enough basic comfort, require relatively low maintenance, have a retracting keel and seem to hold their value.

9. The Pogos have enough foam in different places that they are apparently "unsinkable".

10. My concern about the above boats is they cannot point as high as many boats and are uncomfortable going to weather in any kind of chop. But with the above you can sail less close as needed and they will make up and more what you gave up sailing less close when the wind is on the beam or behind the beam. However, sometimes you have no choice but to pinch as much as possible.

Given the above parameters what new or used boat do you think would be best and why?

[Clamdigger]

Look at older pacific seacraft line of boats. Classy, well appointed, go anywhere boats that have held their value over the years. Lord nelson another boat to look at.

Retracting keel is unnecessary for your pacific water use, so why pay for that feature?

Older 1970 model boats will have their fully depreciated value priced in to their asking price. The newer the boat the more you'll lose on resale.

Don't place so much value in a boat's foam floatation to save your bacon. Have the proper seamenship skills to properly run the vessel, to avoid needing the vessel to rescue you! That's what liferafts are for!

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Clamdigger

Look at older pacific seacraft line of boats. Classy, well appointed, go anywhere boats that have held their value over the years. Lord nelson another boat to look at.

Retracting keel is unnecessary for your pacific water use, so why pay for that feature?

Older 1970 model boats will have their fully depreciated value priced in to their asking price. The newer the boat the more you'll lose on resale.

Don't place so much value in a boat's foam floatation to save your bacon. Have the proper seamenship skills to properly run the vessel, to avoid needing the vessel to rescue you! That's what liferafts are for!

Hi Clamdigger,

Thanks for the reply and your thoughts.

My thinking regarding the retracting keel is that in the Channel Islands and Sea of Cortez it is always better to be able to get closer and to a more protected spot to have a more pleasant night. Agreed it is always a consideration if the added complexity / maintenance is worth it, for a specific use, for something like a retracting keel.

"True Cost To Own" is a consideration but not the most important parameter. New Pogo's and JPK's depreciate a lot less than most new cruising sail boats plus their maintenance is somewhat less. No doubt if you get the right Pacific Seacarft or similar model that has fully depreciated and the last couple of owners have done right by her you will come out ahead.

Would you consider an Island Packet's in the same category as a Pacific Seacarft's?

The Island Packet at the link below is not done depreciating but it caught my eye as a boat in my budget for the type of sailing I am planning to do.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/200...g#.W8ZXn9mZ3IU

[Clamdigger]

Pacific seacraft built the best quality boats when they were in business. The boats are so well built that the owners usually own them a long time.

Island Packets are also nice boats and essentially they fit your parameters at lower cost than a comparable PS. Though not a rule. An older quality built boat will have had all the bugs worked out by previous owners. There are owner forums for various brands, read a few and see where you d feel comfortable hanging out asking questions after your purchase.

[Don C L]

I am not familiar with sailing the boats you listed but I'd say you can get away without retractable keel out at the Channel Islands just fine. You can get good protection without having to get so close to the beach. If I knew I'd be bashing up from Baja, I'd probably err on the side of comfort over pointing ability, but not too much. Get a boat with an aft cabin or a good quarter berth and then you'll be able to sleep better too. I wonder if anyone here has sailed something like a Pogo back up from Baja? I'd sure like to hear about that.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I am not familiar with sailing the boats you listed but I'd say you can get away without retractable keel out at the Channel Islands just fine. You can get good protection without having to get so close to the beach. If I knew I'd be bashing up from Baja, I'd probably err on the side of comfort over pointing ability, but not too much. Get a boat with an aft cabin or a good quarter berth and then you'll be able to sleep better too. I wonder if anyone here has sailed something like a Pogo back up from Baja? I'd sure like to hear about that.

Especially the Pogo and the other two boats mentioned only slightly less, would be an absolute blast going south from SouCal to La Paz in the typical conditions. In the Pogo and JPK in any kind of wind you will be planing.

No boat is going to be comfortable or fun at all heading back in the typical conditions, if you stay close to the coast. The Pogo's would be especially bad. The Pogo's and JPK are true offshore boats so you could head west and as much north that is comfortable from Cabo until you can lay for Ensenada or San Diego.

I have read and have noticed that especially on the Sea of Cortez the wind at times blows from the south in late spring and early summer.

A trailer for a Pogo 30 costs $6.5K. So you could sail her south in the fall or early winter to La Paz, watch for southerlies on the sea of cortez in the late spring, early summer to San Felipe. Then trailer her yourself from San Felipe to Ensenada or pay some one to haul the trailer that could be delivered unloaded to San Felipe with a regular car.

My objective is is have as much fun and time on the water as I can in the 8 weeks a year I have available. It could be in my case it is better to skip the trailer and just pay to have her trucked from San Felipe to Ensenada. As the cliche goes, "I have never seen a Brinks truck in a funeral procession."

[SV THIRD DAY]

Pointing characteristics of a sailboat is pretty meaningless if you're cruising ground is just going to be the Sea of Cortez you need a boat that Motors well when there's no wind.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by SV THIRD DAY

Pointing characteristics of a sailboat is pretty meaningless if you're cruising ground is just going to be the Sea of Cortez you need a boat that Motors well when there's no wind.

I will be sailing the Channel Islands 75% of the time.

[Otia]

Originally Posted by Augi

C. RN 10.70 or RN 12.70

You mean RM?
I like the RM. given the crew size I'd go with the 1270. There are twin rudders and twin keels versions. Try to get those. The construction is impressive, with a stainless steel structure, hull in CP Epoxy. And they are fast. My impression is that it is more of a down wind sailing yacht though.

Twin keels:

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Otia

You mean RM?
I like the RM. given the crew size I'd go with the 1270. There are twin rudders and twin keels versions. Try to get those. The construction is impressive, with a stainless steel structure, hull in CP Epoxy. And they are fast. My impression is that it is more of a down wind sailing yacht though.

Twin keels:

Yes, I meant RM. The RM's are a little more fancy(but I am not sure any more comfortable), than the Pogo's or JPK's. I like them too! Maybe the best aspect is they are quieter because of plywood construction. From what I gather the RM's are fast, fun and solid, but don't plane like the JPK's or Pogo's because they are heavier.

I am never going to have more than 3 total on board usually only two. Smaller and simpler tends to be better if you are comfortable enough and safe. The more complicated and the bigger the boat, with more gadgets and systems means more time doing maintenance / repairs and less time sailing not to mention more expensive upfront and more expensive as you go.

From best to worst in terms of comfort when going to weather against a chop(short period waves), what I gather the order is 1. JPK 2. RM 3. Pogo. The Pogo's will be the fastest and most fun going downwind.

All three are designed to fly downwind.

I want a boat that can handle the sail from La Paz, Mx to SouCal as well as possible(that sail is usually against the wind and with a difficult sea state), while still being as much fun as possible. It could be a Pogo will work but you would have to keep the wind more towards the beam to not get pounded to death. But the Pogo's might be just as fast point A to point B even though you would have to sail more miles.

A Pogo would be the bomb going the other direction from SouCal to La Paz, Mx. If you sail straight through you can probably do it in about 5 days with the typical conditions with the wind at your back.

For my use a Pogo 30 might be best, if it is not too basic in terms of comfort. It is small enough that it can be trailered with a permit and lead car. So I could sail south SouCal to La Paz and sail other in the Sea of Cortez on the return and have some one pull the trailer from the northern end of the Sea of Cortez to Ensenada or SouCal to avoid the bashing sailing north. It looks like what you save in terms of cost of the trailer, wear on the boat, the time, and cost of having the trailer hauled the above approach makes sense. Plus it looks like in the late spring and early there are times when the prevailing wind is from the south in the sea of cortez.

I am going to enjoy the process and will sail all three of the above, as well as sailing some other boats that seem well suited for my intended use, before deciding. It is about seeing where I end up on the performance/fun versus comfort continuum for my use. It is a given that safety is the most important aspect of all.

[Otia]

Originally Posted by Augi

Smaller and simpler tends to be better

hummmm....
I think bigger, heavier is better for bluewater cruising. My thinking is buy the biggest hull you can afford and then work it over time.

Look at that hull on the RM, it is designed to plane.
However if you are going to beat upwind as you said then you don't want a boat that planes; it would knock so hard against the waves.
If you are going out for weeks you will want some comfort.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Otia

hummmm....
I think bigger, heavier is better for bluewater cruising. My thinking is buy the biggest hull you can afford and then work it over time.

Look at that hull on the RM, it is designed to plane.
However if you are going to beat upwind as you said then you don't want a boat that planes; it would knock so hard against the waves.
If you are going out for weeks you will want some comfort.

All valid points.

I will be out 1-2 weeks at a time. Downwind these planing type boats are great. Agreed, I need to be able to go upwind with reasonable comfort.

I am going test anything I buy beforehand in the type conditions I plan to use it in and for the time out at sea I plan to use it. I have pretty much eliminated the RM because all though it is fast and fun, it does not plane or is it is hard to get it to plane and would suck going upwind in any kind of chop compared to a heavy, blue water cruiser. Nothing wrong with it, but is neither here no there. It is heavier than the Pogo's and JPK's but still has a wider, more flat hull so I think it would suck going to weather for long periods of time.

[Training Wheels]

How about a Corsair 31? Sail it down to Mexico, up into the Sea, and trailer it back.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Augi

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

3. Every other year will move the boat to La Paz, Mx and back. For sure I will sail the boat south and is a plus is if the boat is comfortable enough and, stout enough to handle the trip north including if conditions dictate the best route is sailing enough west with wind on the beam so when you make the right turn the wind can be kept more or less on the beam and lay for Ensenada or San Diego. If not, trucking from northern end of the Sea of Cortez to Ensenada is the alternative to sailing the 1000+ miles north. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Urban myth. If you do a starboard tack out of Cabo you will be heading southwest, not west. Big difference. To get wind on the beam to fetch either Ensenada or SD, you'd have to start almost on Catalina Island. Think about it. Please.



Cruising World did an article many years ago called The Baja Dash, harbor hopping up the coast, although the first day is very long. I'd be glad to send it to you, as I have for many others. PM me if you want it.

[Augi]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

How about a Corsair 31? Sail it down to Mexico, up into the Sea, and trailer it back.

You read my mind. I am working on that concept t9o be able to do exactly as you suggest. I am looking at Corsairs 31's, Cruze's and Corsair 36's and 37's. I just got a quotation for a trailer for a Corsair 37. Corsair does not market the 37 as "trailerable" but it is doable. You probably need a permit and a lead car in California. I would have a pro haul the trailer. San Felipe to Ensenada is not far or San Felipe to dry storage in SouCal may be better because you can use an American Company to haul the trailer and boat.

A thought is to dry store a Pogo 30 or Corsair with the mast up on its trailer in SouCal and then do as you suggest: Sail South from SouCal on the outside and then when sailing north sail to Guyamas or San Felipe inside and have a pro haul the trailer and boat to Ensenada or SouCal. That way you only have to lower and raise the mast once a year and avoid the bash north.

However, so far it has been hard to find a place in SouCal that is willing to dry store a Pogo 30 or Corsair 31, Cruze, 36 or 37 on it's own trailer with mast up and lift in and out of water or that has a boat ramp. I have found a place in Guaymas, Mx that will do it. Launch and retrieve is using a boat ramp with their tractor and operator. My preference for the location in SouCal to base the boat is with the best possible access to Channel islands National Park. That means Oxnard or Ventura.

Can anyone suggest a place in SouCal to dry store with mast up on it's own trailer a Pogo 30 or Corsair 37?