Some advice on a surveyors report...

[Terminus]

This is also my first post.

I was about to buy a boat in Florida (I decline to mention what brand and where it is/who is selling with all respect.)

The surveyors report is from Aug 2016. It scared the original buyer for whom the report was conducted badly enough that they changed their mind.

Along I come in October, the worst deficiencies in the report have been repaired and although the condition of the boat is generally good a lot of the navigational and communications equipment (no ssb, vhf non-op, etc.) is not operating.

There is no Radar, or AIS included.

Anyway, this has nothing to do with my request for your advice.

This is the part that bothers me in the report:

"The molded components, ceilings, tankage, linings and joinery precluded full inspection of the
hull and deck interior and hull/deck joint. The deck and cabin surfaces were examined. Surfaces
were found in poor condition, and the gelcoat exhibited cosmetic type crazing and wear. The decks
were sounded with a hammer and tested with a moisture meter for comparative purposes. No
significant flexing/movement was detected; however hammer sounding returned a dull report along
the starboard side deck outboard of the cockpit extending aft around the deck fill fittings, consistent
with deterioration of the core material in this area. Elevated moisture meter readings were detected
in the above listed area of the starboard side deck and in the foredeck."

I have seen what it takes to rebuild a rotten deck and I am neither financially able to take that on so soon after purchasing a boat, nor do I have the expertise to do it myself. I do not have the time to do it as I am still working full time.

The boat is a 41' ketch, fiberglass in excellent cosmetic condition inside and has a new generator and an a main engine with high hours. The boat's appraised value is $41K and I was able to obtain it for $33K

Should I find a better boat? Is there any other reason that could exist to mislead the surveyor on the condition of the deck?

I know they said when a boat is just pulled that moisture readings can be inaccurate but the survey report seems to indicate it is rot.

I certainly don't expect perfection in a used boat at that price but I don't think I should accept buying a boat with a rotten deck unless there is an understanding that it has to be done up front. I am not able to tackle such a job right now.

Thanks

PS I am looking forward to becoming a full time cruiser, even if I have to work at a land job 5-days a week until I don't have to. I am late 50s so I am just about ready to change my entire life and I am only so disappointed with myself for not having the sense to have done it much sooner.

[JPA Cate]

Hello Terminus,

Keep on looking. I think you answered your own question about the coring. The report indicates there is definitely something wrong there, high moisture, and the dull thudding sound when tapped, which should be a sharp sound like the rest of the hammer taps. You said you do not want to take on that type of repair.

No matter how many flaws this boat is known to have, it is the nature of buying boats that it is likely there are a number of other things wrong with it that have not been disclosed, wiring needing replacement comes to mind, seacocks, chainplates. Is it a Taiwan built boat? There were a lot of construction shortcuts and worse taken with some of those boats. What does it say to you that the Vhf has not been repaired or replaced? [I'm hearing a general lack of maintenance.] Tell the seller, thanks, but no thanks. Why ever would you NOT want to find a better boat?

Ann

[transmitterdan]

The hammer sounding technique is pretty definitive. Backed up with elevated moisture readings would seem conclusive that the inner fill material is softened by moisture ingress. If this is an area of stress (winches, turning block, cleats, etc.) then it should be fixed IMO as a safety issue. I don't think there is any other good explanation for soft sounding deck space with high moisture readings.

There are lots of good boats on the market. Don't think this is the only boat available. If your gut is telling you to question the buy decision then you should listen. That guy is seldom wrong.

[Terminus]

Some of the deficiencies that were repaired since Aug were:

all seacocks
bubbles in hull fiberglass
new bottom paint
drive shaft *
drive shaft coupling *
shaft/hull tunnel seals *

It's an American boat. I guess I should just say it I hope I don't inadvertently embarrass anyone.

1981 Morgan Out Islander 41' I know many people consider it a flawed design (I have read every iota of information and discussion along that vein.) I happen to like what some do not, the full shallow draft keel.

I was supposed to put the deposit on her today but I am now balking. I had her under contract too but when I got my hands on the Aug 2016 survey I suppose reality made an intervention

Thank you Ann! I had been hoping there might be some other explanation possible but alas.

Back to the endless(?) search for what I want, what I can afford and what I really need.

ETA I forgot to mention why the asterisks, as you said Ann no maintenance (i.e. zincs completely gone according to the survey...)

[Terminus]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

The hammer sounding technique is pretty definitive. Backed up with elevated moisture readings would seem conclusive that the inner fill material is softened by moisture ingress. If this is an area of stress (winches, turning block, cleats, etc.) then it should be fixed IMO as a safety issue. I don't think there is any other good explanation for soft sounding deck space with high moisture readings.

There are lots of good boats on the market. Don't think this is the only boat available. If your gut is telling you to question the buy decision then you should listen. That guy is seldom wrong.

Thank you Dan.

I am somewhat hampered by being in the mountains of NM so I was going to visit that boat during Thanksgiving but was being rushed to commit.

I guess that is the way it goes when buying used boats. Even reputable firms sell bad boats it seems .

Ann mentioned something that bothers me too, about the fact that it wasn't pointed out at first as if there were any doubt about what is going on.

I have a feeling the area aft and starboard of the cockpit is a high stress area I remember seeing winches there. That was an important point to consider, Thank you.

I look forward to many years of meeting and discussing things with people here.

My areas are electronics, electical and alternate energy. Oh, and computers, security and networking. Some of that will be helpful in my new life, some not so much

I live off the grid at an observatory in the mountains of New Mexico.

[Suijin]

It doesn't matter that the boat was just pulled, you're not concerned (with respect to this issue) with water permeation below the waterline. The boat is not cored below the waterline and so the issue there is blisters. The boat deck is not going to have lower moisture readings after the boat is hauled, ever, unless it's covered for a year or two and dried out. The elevated moisture in the deck is from rain, not from seawater.

The only way to protect yourself in a situation like this, since the extent of damage cannot be verified until actual repair has started, is to require investigative work is performed and the estimated cost of repair is deducted from the agreed on purchase price. But that would only be something to consider if the boat was a tremendous value in all other respects. Don't EVER require repair of anything by the previous owner before closing...it's a recipe for substandard work.

However, there is a very solid reason to walk away, which is that if the deck was categorically reported to be in poor condition, it's reasonable to assume that penetration of water into the deck is incipient throughout. At the very least, the repair aside, you would want to remove, inspect, and rebed every fitting on the deck and cabin. That's an enormous project on a boat of that size. Ideally you'd do that and you'd also paint the deck. You can compound the gelcoat all you want but you can't repair it. It needs to be either painted (expensive) or regelcoated (REALLY expensive) with all the fittings ideally off.

Many boat owners let the deck gelcoat go, satisfying themselves with giving it a wash and scrubbing a few times a year. If it chalks and cracks, it's a bad sign and leads to worse things.

As an aside, if this was listed by a broker, then the listed condition of the boat is what the owner is on the hook for. Was the prior survey provided to you before or after your bid was accepted? If after, you can certainly walk away based on any significant flaws identified in the survey that were not included in the original listing information.

It may not be a bad broker. There is no such thing as an older boat in perfect condition, except perhaps on the first day it hits the water after a massive refit. Entropy is a far harsher mistress with boats than it is with houses.

[Dulcesuenos]

Just my 2c, many Morgan's have moisture to so e degree in areas on deck. I've never seen one Come apart because of it, and many times it's a repair the owners fix themselves

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Terminus

Even reputable firms sell bad boats it seems.

Of course they do. They sell whatever boat they are hired to sell. The disreputable firms will try to misrepresent the boat's condition. The reputable firms will not. It sounds like this one did not.

Your money, your choice, of course. Personally, I would walk away and not look back.

[Terminus]

Hello!

Originally Posted by Suijin

It doesn't matter that the boat was just pulled, you're not concerned (with respect to this issue) with water permeation below the waterline. The boat is not cored below the waterline and so the issue there is blisters. The boat deck is not going to have lower moisture readings after the boat is hauled, ever, unless it's covered for a year or two and dried out. The elevated moisture in the deck is from rain, not from seawater.

That makes much sense. I guess the hard lesson that everyone already knows is maintenance. It's such a shame that people let that happen to such amazing craft.
They never considered their boats to be a high priority I suppose.

Originally Posted by Suijin

The only way to protect yourself in a situation like this, since the extent of damage cannot be verified until actual repair has started, is to require investigative work is performed and the estimated cost of repair is deducted from the agreed on purchase price. But that would only be something to consider if the boat was a tremendous value in all other respects. Don't EVER require repair of anything by the previous owner before closing...it's a recipe for substandard work.

Thank you for that advice too. I think there are much better prospects for me in that price range but I also now understand that you can't do this from afar. For me that will be a struggle until I can relocate closer to the southeast coasts. I have to work full time so any available time will be very limited as it is.

Originally Posted by Suijin

However, there is a very solid reason to walk away, which is that if the deck was categorically reported to be in poor condition, it's reasonable to assume that penetration of water into the deck is incipient throughout. At the very least, the repair aside, you would want to remove, inspect, and rebed every fitting on the deck and cabin. That's an enormous project on a boat of that size. Ideally you'd do that and you'd also paint the deck. You can compound the gelcoat all you want but you can't repair it. It needs to be either painted (expensive) or regelcoated (REALLY expensive) with all the fittings ideally off.

Right. It is perfect for someone who has a yard and a workshop and a lot of free time. I don't meet any of those criterion, unfortunately. I'd love to do that someday but not right now.

Originally Posted by Suijin

Many boat owners let the deck gelcoat go, satisfying themselves with giving it a wash and scrubbing a few times a year. If it chalks and cracks, it's a bad sign and leads to worse things.

As an aside, if this was listed by a broker, then the listed condition of the boat is what the owner is on the hook for. Was the prior survey provided to you before or after your bid was accepted? If after, you can certainly walk away based on any significant flaws identified in the survey that were not included in the original listing information.

It may not be a bad broker. There is no such thing as an older boat in perfect condition, except perhaps on the first day it hits the water after a massive refit. Entropy is a far harsher mistress with boats than it is with houses.

I got the survey after I signed the contract. I am not worried though as I never sent a deposit and had not 'accepted' the boat.

I question the firm selling the boat after that report shows the deck is rotten. Maybe they have so many boats they didn't catch that little detail back in Aug 2016. The site where I found it (it is on several) did show the price was recently reduced but it was not mentioned in the advertising any where.

Thank you for your sage advice and I will listen and absorb.

I have to admit it would be really great fun to refit a nice boat that needed to be saved from destruction but that isn't what I need right now.

I will be constantly performing major and minor maintenance, refitting as we go along and will constantly be improving but I need to start with a boat that has a good beginning condition not a project boat.

As I said earlier I certainly don't expect perfection at the price range I am looking at but a sound hull, deck and rigging would really help me out.

Cheers!

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Terminus

I have to admit it would be really great fun to refit a nice boat that needed to be saved from destruction but that isn't what I need right now.

"Fun" is a relative term. A "nice boat that needs to be saved from destruction" is 99.9% of the time a project that turns into an expensive and disappointing nightmare. You're an uninformed romantic. I don't mean that as a slight...it's an objective assessment meant to spare you pain and suffering.

It takes a tremendous amount of time and expense to keep even well cared for boats in good condition. Trying to bring one back from the dead almost always results in misery. The only exceptions are owners with a long history of working on boats who know exactly what they are getting into to begin with. You're not that person.

There are endless threads on this forum posted by people in exactly your circumstances and with your goal, and level of knowledge and experience. There is a tremendous amount of valuable information in those threads, in the replies and exchanges. Not sure what the best way to search for them is but it seems like every week or two a post like this pops up.

[leftbrainstuff]

You put a moisture meter near any vessel and you'll detect moisture.

I take it you have a foam cored vessel. You dont mention the age.

The repair process for rectifying rotten or collapsed foam cores is well documented. You access one side scrape it out and rebuild. Either with foam or with epoxy and various fillers.

It sounds like the boat is generally in poor condition. Keep looking.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[PHR]

I read somewhere that boats grow on trees. So why buy a boat you do not trust to be in the condition you want?! There are other and better boats out there.

[George DuBose]

I bought Skylark against the surveyor's recommendation. Her defects were clearly the result of lack of maintenance. None of the electronics worked, but they were all of a vintage that I would have replaced them all anyway.

...but I wanted a Pearson 36 and having renovated another Pearson 26 previously, I had a good idea of what I was facing. Water damage from leaking chainplates wasn't the end of the world.

Also I had the time (9 months over three years) to do a complete renovation.

The renovation was so complete that Skylark went through a PCA survey in The Netherlands and received the RCD catagory "A".

There are plenty of great and well-loved sailboats on the market only because of the PO's health issues. It's a buyer's market.

[grantmc]

Originally Posted by Suijin

"Fun" is a relative term. ...

There are endless threads on this forum posted by people in exactly your circumstances and with your goal, and level of knowledge and experience. There is a tremendous amount of valuable information in those threads, in the replies and exchanges. Not sure what the best way to search for them is but it seems like every week or two a post like this pops up.

This is so true. Many of them bought the cheap project boat. They spend years working and spending on their boat and it seems the majority never actually end up going sailing. Sooner or later most give up or run out of money.

As well as the skills, time and money to do the work, you also need somewhere to keep the boat to work on her.

[19Valiant79]

Having recored/rebuilt the majority of deck/cabin trunk on our lovely 1968 Tartan Classic (Blackwatch Hull#15) 37', I can tell you as a professional builder the cost minus labor for that plus the other improvements (full wiring, abrrier coat bottom, electronics, windlass, standing rigging & lifelines, headliner, new gelcoat, galley cabinetry, battery bank) was alone over $25K in 2002.
Add to that a new Yanmar $25K, genoa $3K and you get the picture.

You will want to spend your later years sailing, not recoring decks.

If you want a classic sloop, ready to go, WITH a current survey, check out
Alida at Rocknak*s Yacht Sales
in Rockport ME. You can refresh the Sikkens teak coaming/rails and that will be about as much as you may want to do!