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Old 10-07-2019, 05:54   #1
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How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

... hope to get some ideas and feedback abt how to proceed with owners of elder multihulls (built around 1985-1995) who don't deliver a "complete picture" about their boat.

As I live in North Europe (Netherlands), there are not such kind of boats available (absent the mainstream brands like Dragonfly or Farriers). I get sales offers from overseas.

As I am searching for a trimaran to live on in the category cruiser-racer, I fell over different boats during last months, found on the well known Internet platforms (e.g. yachthub.com, boats.com, rightboat.com, yachtall.com, boatshop24.com, moreboats.com, yachtworld.com, multihullworld.com, multihullcompany.com, catamaransite.com etc. ...).

Boat Designs in the size of 38-41/42 ft size by Norman Cross, Lock Crowther, Philippe Briand, Hedley Nicol, Phil Herting and Mick Price or Dick Newick at the age of 25-35 years mostly I find in USA/Canada, Australia/NZ or some very exotic places (like Indonesia or Mauritius).

I like to get relevant data as much as possible before its worth to fly trans-ocean for a closer look.

In tentency I notice abt many of these boats:
  • most of these elder boats in the market are offered by agents/brokers
  • the technical specifications are very incomplete, e.g. lacking details about size / age / material of sails, construction materials, displacement, engine hours, capacities of batteries etc. ...
  • picture documentation is mostly incomplete, e.g. lacking photos of under water ship/rudder/propellor, engine room ...
  • no survey (by an independent surveyor) or elder surveys (5-10 years ago) which is relevant for the insurance

Another trend I notice: the owners are of higher age, and the agent of the broker company can't get more details than already offered on the website. The owners are just not motivated (anymore) to invest any work in the sales process or their health situation doesn't allow it.

The prices for elder Tris in the size of ~40 ft range around 80-120 Thousand dollars. In my understanding heavily overpriced, as not very well equipped for long distance sailing. Another 70-80 Thousand dollars must be invested to make it complete and bring it up-to-date (e.g. solar panels, lithium batteries, wind turbine, new sails, new standing rig, AIS, Radar, water maker etc. ....).

What to do if the answer getting back after requesting more details from the broker is: "We are waiting for offers from buyer's side coming in. Owner says SELL. - We will look at all offers."

For me it feels little bit uncomfortable, if I'd make a prize offer in the range of ~25-30 Thousand (here calculating the ongoing investments of another 70-80 Thousand dollars), while the boat is in the market overpriced for 80 Thousand. - Does this work out ?

Can you advice a strategy how to fix a deal by establishing a good negotiation process (under the given circumstances) ? - Tks in advance for sharing your own experiences and critical feedback.



Greetings/JR
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:48   #2
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

While it never hurts to ask, I doubt you will get that large of a discount. If you are going to make an offer I would provide the broker with your rationale: New standing rigging $x, sails, Y, etc so he can show the owner you are serious and not just looking to steal the boat. In the US offers are contingent on survey and sea trial.
Good luck!
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Old 10-07-2019, 08:48   #3
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

Yeah, i agree that there are far too many older tris on the market that have been sitting there unsold for a long time. Look at Amakama in Maine. 80k to 20k to 14k. Dunno what she sold for finally, if she did. Its like the guy in New Brunswick with his older tri - worn sails, worn rigging, rot, old green vulva motor, old electronics. Boat is unfortunately probably worth nothing. Same with Juniper - 100K US and now 100K euros, still hasn't sold the last i looked. What about her sistership Juniper 2? 150K US and has been on the market for years. Top condition i think, but if she, at 54' tri, hasn't sold in years, then these others are WAY overpriced.

So my advice to you is either wait (my strategy) or make low-ball offers. Maybe hint around to see if they are open to offers. Hint around and see if they would get insulted.

Worth a tri

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Old 10-07-2019, 09:03   #4
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

-You need to actually see the boat for sure.
-I suggest that most of those types should be available real cheap.
-Owners who just started to sell will think their boat is worth a lot more than it is.
-View the boat with the broker and ask lots of questions.
-Try to find the owner's name on a document in the boat while viewing.
-Try to contact the owner to discuss the boat. This will often tell you much more than anything! If he would meet you at the boat that is superb... owners talk too much.
-If you can't do that convince the broker you are interested and see if he'd be silling to ask the owner to meet you on the boat.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:17   #5
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

Often the owners don't need the money. They dont care if they sell the boat or not. When the owners are older, the boat is probably not their first priority any more and they often have an unrealistic idea what the boat may be worth. So they will put a big price on it and just let the boat sit and wait to see if someone comes along and buys it. Often someone does.....there is no shortage of people who have more money than sense.
There is a lot of luck involved in getting the right boat at the right price. You have to be in the right place at the right time. Eventually you will find an owner who just wants the boat gone and they will be willing to take any offer as long as they do not have to deal with the boat anymore.
Keep looking; you will eventually find the right situation and get the boat of your dreams at a price you are willing to pay.
Make many offers. They will either take it on they won't. You never know what the owner is thinking. He may just decide on that day that he wants the boat gone and take your offer. Don't over pay because you lost patience. You will eventually find what you are looking for. Good luck.
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Old 11-07-2019, 04:31   #6
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

If your serious about a particular boat I would get a survey before setting foot on it. That will not cost as a trip and can provide additional bargaining info. I did an abbreviated survey on a cat I bought off ebay. You can even talk to the surveyor as he’s doing if he’s willing.
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Old 11-07-2019, 07:15   #7
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

My first "Tks" to the wave of feedback and input. As I always appreciate the seriousity of positive impact by CruisersForum members, its very helpfully. Obviously, this topic is led less by a technical procedure, more a mental challenge, under the given circumstances of the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ostinato View Post
If your serious about a particular boat I would get a survey before setting foot on it. That will not cost as a trip and can provide additional bargaining info. I did an abbreviated survey on a cat I bought off ebay. You can even talk to the surveyor as he’s doing if he’s willing.
What do you mean with "abbreviated survey". This term comes along my sailing road first time. If you don't mind, maybe you can upload a scan of your Cat survey to take a closer look. :-) - What about the fee for a certified surveyer writing such ?
---
Attached an example of a Survey of spring 2012 for a "Jim Brown 31 Ft. Trimaran" (SeaRunner). The report includes on page 4 a validation (market value + replacement costs). Such kind I know. - I suppose a detailed report with ultrasonic analysis/humidity check costs around 2,000 US dollars plus extra fees, e.g. slip/dry dock, crane/laying mast for rig inspection etc. ... right ?

Keep going with your feedback. I appreciate it a lot. Very helpfully.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Survey 2013-J-Brown-Trimaran.pdf (1.11 MB, 115 views)
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Old 13-07-2019, 20:22   #8
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

Abbreviated survey is also called a "consultation survey". Just a quick view of the boat to see if it's represented properly by the seller. From a broker's site:



Many times a potential buyer will find a listing for a vessel that is out of state or even in a different country from which they reside. In this case, a consultation survey may be the best option.













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Old 14-07-2019, 00:04   #9
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

Long distance purchase comes with complications and costs.

I would ask the broker to do an inspection via skype (or video platform of your preference). This won't cost anything and gets you past the online photos which likely avoid or gloss over problems. You can ask in real time to look in the bilge or get a close up of something that doesn't look right.

I wouldn't get into explaining your rational for the pricing. Most people are NOT rational regarding boats, they are emotional. This is likely someone's baby and they would likely take it as being insulting if you listed all the flaws their baby has. Instead, be positive...you really love the boat but only have a budget of $x. If you would consider it, that would be great but you totally understand if that's too low. If they are open to a lower price, they might accept or counter offer. If not, you haven't insulted them and in 6-12 months, they might come back when they realize they are over priced.

That said a 75% reduction from list price, is likely a non-starter (at least when first on the market).

As far as survey, that's the buyers responsibility. Even if they have one, you need to get your own. The surveyor should be beholden to you not the seller (and don't ask the broker for a recommendation).
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Old 14-07-2019, 02:26   #10
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

From buying a fair amount real estate, I know that people get their hackles up about unwarranted lowball offers. Doesn't mean you shouldn't (you absolutely should) but add some BS about how it spoke to you, that it calls you as a home, something you will treat with respect and love. But unfortunately this is all the cash you have. Point out the flaws but be gentle. The owner won't get insulted, maybe there will be a little back and forth that you can live with and both sides walk away happy.
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Old 14-07-2019, 07:18   #11
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

hoho ... so many good advices. Tks a lot for all the input. Will come back later to the single posts, in detail.

Just to give an idea what I am talking about here: two boats built mid of the 80s and 90s I am in contact with the owners.

One is a 40 ft Crowther (original Buccaneer 36 type) ... 35 year old
... and a 41 ft Norman Cross (original size 38 ft) ... 24 year old.

Both boats (pics see attachments) have an after cabin which I prefer, as I like to separate living on board during day = working in the saloon (as cultural journalist for radio) and resting.
Emotionally I prefer the Crowther by type, as it is of sportive performance, has centre daggerboard and kick up rudder for falling dry/beaching. But it will be lots of work to invest (and money) to tune it to a long distance sailing boat.

The Crowther is for sale at ~70TEuro. This boat has very little equipment. Mostly used for day sailing/short distance. At least the owner is willing to look at "any prize offer". I estimate the real value is around 25-30 TEuros. (Rec.: A detailed calculation of the equipment and replacement during next 2-3 years sums up at around 70-80 TEuro investment to make this boat a "long distance cruiser".)

The BIGGER Norman Cross (with headroom of 1.90 m in all sections) was built professionally by a European boat builder. It is for sale since more than 5 years already. But since longer not promoted actively anymore in the market. In 2014 the boat was offered by a broker for 125TEuros. Lots of equipment for long distance sailing/living on board (inclusive webasto heating system, radar, Zodiak dinghy/outborder, wind generator + hydro generator etc., Immarsat ...). Navigation equipment is original and little bit outdated. I estimate the value now at around ~45 TEuro, as probably to invest during next 2 years another 45-50 TEuro.
---

Time to leave the computer desk. Sunny weather, perfect wind conditions. Pick up one of the Club boats (EWVA in Noord Holland) and have 2 hours sailing fun :-)

Laters .... have an enjoyable Sunday.
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Old 19-07-2019, 12:12   #12
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

Having gone this route ourselves, all I can say is be careful! We purchased ours after having a friend see her for us as she was down in FL and we live in NY. On the surface all appeared ok. However, the owners didn't want to do a sea trial as they were living on her as their home (wife had had recent back surgery..reason for sale) and they had stuff piled everywhere prepping for their move. Engine did start right up as did the generator, both sounded good (still do).

It was only after their stuff was off the boat that we found the nightmares (some of course to be expected with an older used boat, some not and mis-represented by the previous owners). Every and all systems that had ever been on the boat were still there wiring wise (and often the equipment itself). We literally removed probably 25 5-gallon buckets of old wiring alone. Much of it was not only not bundled but not even capped off...so a seaway could have started a lot of arc welding lol. The steering cables had rotted, the "anchor chain that needed regalvanizing" was a rusted together mess, the windlass wasn't working (needed a new battery), while there were instruments on board (radar, sonar, gps, etc. none were actually working). The inverter needed rebuilding. The dingy sank when my husband-ish stood in it (the transom had separated). One of my personal "favorites" one of the eight, yep, count them, eight sea cocks wasn't closing so their solution was to jam a fat sharpie pen into it! WTF??!!
However, the biggest issue is that the drive system (hydraulic) gets too hot in the warm waters of FL and the drive loses power big time! It got us into a few very scary situations during our sea trial of 50 miles. So we've been re-thinking the drive system (all input welcome). It has two props but just one engine.

On the plus side, with the work we've done so far the survey we got has it $10,500 over purchase price and a new replacement value of $675,000 so we don't consider it a loss in the long run. It's solid as a rock hull wise and in good condition per the survey. But instead of being able to bring it back to NY, it is in the FL Keys and will stay there this year while being re-done to make it more of a coastal cruiser vs. a "dock queen".

If you can get it surveyed, it's well worth it. Ours was $350 and worth every penny. Owners tend to be emotional about their boats and think they're worth more than they are, you can make a lowball offer saying, "well I've come all this way so not to insult you but I'll make an offer that I'd consider". I know the boat we bought was originally listed for $250,000...no where near the selling price we got it for which was less than half that by quite a bit, but it was also after a few years.

Good luck
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Old 19-07-2019, 13:17   #13
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by snoozy814 View Post
SNIP

However, the owners didn't want to do a sea trial

SNIP
That would have been a non starter for me.

I do understand in the rest of your post that you seem happy with the deal even after finding lots of stuff that needed fixing and am not blind to the possibility of finding a gem in the rough. But I think you got lucky.
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Old 19-07-2019, 16:55   #14
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

I generally agree! The boat had much of what we’d been looking for, knew w any older boat (or any used boat) there’s going to be work to do. Had the situation not been as difficult w all their stuff everywhere would have done one and as I said, never again. We did luck out in many ways and fortunately my partner is super mechanical so we’ve done all the work.

With some work she will be a good boat, has a lot going for her. Unfortunately having been a dock queen for the last three years in a salt water environment didn’t help and previous owners not doing stuff the correct way didn’t help (penny wise and pound foolish).
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Old 19-07-2019, 18:33   #15
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Re: How to do price negotiations for an elder Trimaran ...

FWIW, If you can find an epoxy built boat then give it extra consideration. Epoxy is a good start!
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